Barack Obama

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Would you not vote for Barack Obama based on race?

Yes.
10
22%
No.
36
78%
 
Total votes: 46

Nat_H
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Post by Nat_H »

Klc, Hitler killed millions of people. He also was, I will argue, not a good leader. He did show brilliance at some points, and was perhaps a clever man. How do you mean "he was a good man?"

Also, can we talk about Obama? :)
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

If you think Hitler killed millions of people then you obviously have limited knowledge of how the Nazi system worked.

Hitler did not order the killing of millions, he merely let it happen, you can say thats evil, but the whole of the german and neighbouring countries let it happen, are you going to call them satanic too?

And the been a brilliant leader, again, you obviously do not know all the tiny details of nazi germany under his rule. Basically, before Hitler the german economy was in such a poor shape from World War One and poor governing that people were starving to death and dieing from the cold in their own homes due to the worst depression the world has ever seen. Admitely alot of credit should go to Papen, the first Chancellor to make a massive impact on the country since the war, but many viewed him as only papering over the cracks instead of rebuilding the wall.

When Hitler came to power a massive transformation took place. Germany went from been a economically and socially crippled country to a world superpower in a matter of a few years. Massive Government projects that he started completely turned around the economy, things like making the Labour front so unemployment no longer existed, the making of the auto bahn to keep people busy and benefit the country, rearmourment made millions of spin off jobs and sent shockwaves through the economy and spurred it on stronger than ever before.

Also, although rather barbaric, the introduction of the SS and the SS's Gestapo, or secret police, meant that not only was crime rates down to bare minimum, but that a sense of pride and social justice was brought down on the country.

I don't care what you say, but if there was another leader like Hitler that would whip this country into shape by getting rid of unfair benefit systems and getting everyone employed, he would get my vote and many other peoples votes instantly. National pride is one of the most important things to been a great leader, and Hitler had and shared truck loads of it.

Thats why he was a great leader.
pickyourheadup
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Post by pickyourheadup »

klc123 wrote:If you think Hitler killed millions of people then you obviously have limited knowledge of how the Nazi system worked.

Hitler did not order the killing of millions, he merely let it happen, you can say thats evil, but the whole of the german and neighbouring countries let it happen, are you going to call them satanic too?

And the been a brilliant leader, again, you obviously do not know all the tiny details of nazi germany under his rule. Basically, before Hitler the german economy was in such a poor shape from World War One and poor governing that people were starving to death and dieing from the cold in their own homes due to the worst depression the world has ever seen. Admitely alot of credit should go to Papen, the first Chancellor to make a massive impact on the country since the war, but many viewed him as only papering over the cracks instead of rebuilding the wall.

When Hitler came to power a massive transformation took place. Germany went from been a economically and socially crippled country to a world superpower in a matter of a few years. Massive Government projects that he started completely turned around the economy, things like making the Labour front so unemployment no longer existed, the making of the auto bahn to keep people busy and benefit the country, rearmourment made millions of spin off jobs and sent shockwaves through the economy and spurred it on stronger than ever before.

Also, although rather barbaric, the introduction of the SS and the SS's Gestapo, or secret police, meant that not only was crime rates down to bare minimum, but that a sense of pride and social justice was brought down on the country.

I don't care what you say, but if there was another leader like Hitler that would whip this country into shape by getting rid of unfair benefit systems and getting everyone employed, he would get my vote and many other peoples votes instantly. National pride is one of the most important things to been a great leader, and Hitler had and shared truck loads of it.

Thats why he was a great leader.
I love how most of your posts seem to attack other people.
To be honest, I partially agree with klc. It would be nice if a leader could turn the U.S. around the way Hitler did...but not using some of his methods.

What do you guys think about Obama's State of the Union Address?
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shahensha
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Post by shahensha »

klc123 wrote:If you think Hitler killed millions of people then you obviously have limited knowledge of how the Nazi system worked.

Hitler did not order the killing of millions, he merely let it happen, you can say thats evil, but the whole of the german and neighbouring countries let it happen, are you going to call them satanic too?

And the been a brilliant leader, again, you obviously do not know all the tiny details of nazi germany under his rule. Basically, before Hitler the german economy was in such a poor shape from World War One and poor governing that people were starving to death and dieing from the cold in their own homes due to the worst depression the world has ever seen. Admitely alot of credit should go to Papen, the first Chancellor to make a massive impact on the country since the war, but many viewed him as only papering over the cracks instead of rebuilding the wall.

When Hitler came to power a massive transformation took place. Germany went from been a economically and socially crippled country to a world superpower in a matter of a few years. Massive Government projects that he started completely turned around the economy, things like making the Labour front so unemployment no longer existed, the making of the auto bahn to keep people busy and benefit the country, rearmourment made millions of spin off jobs and sent shockwaves through the economy and spurred it on stronger than ever before.

Also, although rather barbaric, the introduction of the SS and the SS's Gestapo, or secret police, meant that not only was crime rates down to bare minimum, but that a sense of pride and social justice was brought down on the country.

I don't care what you say, but if there was another leader like Hitler that would whip this country into shape by getting rid of unfair benefit systems and getting everyone employed, he would get my vote and many other peoples votes instantly. National pride is one of the most important things to been a great leader, and Hitler had and shared truck loads of it.

Thats why he was a great leader.
Thats load of crock if you are trying to claim them as satanic too. Imagine you are in a play-ground and some big and angry fellow bent on revenge pulls a revolver and starts gunning people. Will you try to run away and hide from his attention or will you rather get shot?

That is what the neighbouring countries were trying to do. Stay hush and queit so the guns of war wouldnt be pointed at them. Especially considering they just fought a large scale war and then a depression, no one would want to step in for another war right away.

Besides neighbouring countries letting people die and Hitler letting people die cannot be compared under any circumstances. Hitler allowed the killing of the people because that is what he wanted. Its not as if it happened behind his back and he said "oh well whatever". I mean he was dictator for goodness sake. He had complete control. Any rebellion or a stain in his course to make the perfect nation was ordered to be wiped out immediately.

If you consider the impact he had on the country's economical and military (uhh lets no count the idiocy of stalingrad) infrastructure many would consider him a revolutionary genius and a great leader. However, if you also include the impact he had on the population of the country, many would deem him a ruthless and maniacal tyrant and not at all a good man. A great leader must be just in his treatment towards the people he is ruling as well.

I dont give a damn what you say, but if you see a man run a perfect nation at the expense of countless number of lives then you would back down from voting for him............unless you were fearful of his totalitarian approach and lack of interest in disobedience and human life.
fr33k1ck
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Post by fr33k1ck »

This is unbelievable. KLC, Hitler DID order the killing of millions. He authorized the use of concentration camps, he authorized the sterilization of mixed French/Senegalese children, he wanted a master race, he wrote mein kamf. He didn't "merely let it happen", it was his idea, his scheme. Come on.
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soccer11
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Post by soccer11 »

haha Hitler was a good man? no. I will agree he was a great leader and very intelligent but that doesn't make you a good person. It doesn't make stalin one either. And just because he didn't personally throw them in the fire or release the gas doesn't mean he isn't responsible. And allowing it is the same as doing it, even though he was definitely part of those discussions. Is it just a coincident that he hated jews and then all of a sudden they started killing jews?
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footy_oaf
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Post by footy_oaf »

that is true... why do you think that when they were losing the war he ordered the killing of as many jews, gypsies, poles etc as possible?

yes, he was evil, but great... not good, great. he was all out against versailles, because he knew that would get the people on his side, and once that happened.. he could do anything
Magicfeet
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Post by Magicfeet »

That level of ignorance is too astounding to even bother correcting.

Hitler was an strong and charismatic leader, true. But to say he was a "good man" is pathetic, insensitive, inflammatory and, at best, ill-educated.
bsc
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Post by bsc »

Hitler was a strong and effective leader.

... nothing can ever justify what he did and authorized

I would take someone like Hamilton if I was going to look up to someone in history because of their intelligence.

Hitler was a terrible human being.

NOW about Obama, he makes speaches interesting and watchable, but how he went about the state of the union bugged me. He told too many jokes at serious times and went out of his way to insult republcans (whom i share no love for either). He promoted offshore drilling, and coal use, and the republicans pretended not to like just because he was the one saying it. I think he did say some important things and I think he has been doing a good job.
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Nat_H
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Post by Nat_H »

About Obama, I though the speech was "good," he was very optimistic and proposed a plan. I just think he's being stubborn on things like healthcare and "overwhelming scientific evidence for climate change," when the majority of Americans disagree with him on those issues. Besides the fact that I disagree with him on government spending, it seemed he was pandering to conservatives by saying things they agree with, while actually doing nothing to back his words up. Its just politics.
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

Im loving how people are telling me that im ill-educated on the subject when ive studied Nazi germany at A level and gotten an A* in it.

If your going to call my a ignorant moron and attempt to tell me im wrong, then start backing up your opinions with arguments, because at the moment all im getting back is flimsey statements that i could rip to pieces like a piece of paper.

Not all my posts attack people, but i hate it when people assume im the ignorant one just because their not as edcuated as i am in a specific field.

Now listen up, Everybody.

Im happy for you to have different opinions to me. Infact im more than happy, i love debates and discussion with other intelligent people, i encourage it. All you have to do is refrain from insulting me/anyone else and mine/or anyone elses opinion, and state your own and your arugments for it.
That level of ignorance is too astounding to even bother correcting.

Hitler was an strong and charismatic leader, true. But to say he was a "good man" is pathetic, insensitive, inflammatory and, at best, ill-educated.
Thats not how to post. For one he hasn't bothered giving anything close to been useful input. Secondly he has insulted my opinion. Thirdly he has insulted me. Forthly, his flimsey argument has absolutely no reasoning or explation behind it.

Next.

Please read someones post properly before posting. This isn't targetted at anyone in particular but the amount of replies that have used arugments that ive completely discredited in previous posts is absolutely vile.

Finally.

Do not make up facts. Im sorry but making up things about a subject that you might have alot of general knowledge about but not specific things is just appalling. Again this isn't targetted at any one person but for christ sake look at this.
Hitler DID order the killing of millions. He authorized the use of concentration camps, he authorized the sterilization of mixed French/Senegalese children, he wanted a master race, he wrote mein kamf.
1. Hitler did not personally order the killing of the Jews. Have you ever heard of something called the wannsee conference? This was the turning point in Nazi germany when the leading Germans decided to start the mass murder of the Jews. There were many people at that conference, a certain Himmler, one of Hitlers generals, was the one that gave in the idea of killing Jews. It gained support amonst all of the other people in the conference, Hitler could not and would not have had the power or authority to say no, otherwise he would appear weak and be taken out of power. So hitler DID NOT ORDER THE KILLING OF THE JEWS, HE JUST ALLOWED IT. END OF DISCUSSION.

2. Have you actually read Mein Kampf? Im fairly certain you haven't because if you had you would know its about how he believed the political system in Germany was flawed and how he had failed misserably for his country in the Munich putsch. Yes there are parts in the book were he may inference that the Jews were to blame for the economic down turn but i hate to break it to you, they were. Im not up for debating this because its high controversial and prone to upsetting people so forget i said it, but the point im making, is that he didn't say he wanted to kill every Jew in the world. He also never talks about a Aryan race in the book saying that he wants to kill everyone that isn't it, he merely says he wanted to bring Germany back to the prestigious glory it once had. Fair enough i say.


Back to him been a Good man. No Hitler was not a perfect human, but par one certain Christ, no one has been, is or ever will be. The point i was making was that he was not evil like people make him out to be. He was just a powerful pawn in a revolutionary and racist government of cowards too scared to show their own faces. The nazi part had hundreds and hundreds of people behind the scenes doing all the horrible stuff and coming forward with all the ideas.

The treatment of the Jews in Nazi germany was an esculation that Hitler did not forsee/want or ever imagine in his worst nightmares would happen. Many of you don't understand the principal that pride was the most important thing for any country in this time. And if he turned against the country behind him, reguardless of them been racist or not, he would have been seen as a coward and would probably have been killed. His pride was all he had and he wasn't going to give it up for nothing.

Its just the way things esculated that a good man ended up allowing and commiting hideous crimes from good intentions.

Many leaders have fallen victim to this trap, the Korean/Vietnam wars both been examples of this. No Hitler isn't perfect, but there are far worse people in the world today like the leaders of North Korea and some radicals in the Chinese government.

If you've soaked that all in well done, i hope you had a good history lesson, but if you take one thing from this post, please let it be that you stop insulting other people because of their opinion and just telling them politely that you disagree and put your reasons behind it. I know i often attack people very aggressively on these forums, i do it every day, but i meet aggression with aggression, i know this isn't the best approach and im sorry for that but thats just how i am, but i do try to refrain myself, so do the same yourself.
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Post by mint »

Ok guys lets just calm this down a bit yeah, i can see a full blown post war breaking out soon, so lets just get off the hitler topic and back on the obama topic ok guys?

If anyone posts anything to retaliate to klcs post i will rate the post a one and lock the topic ok, no need to cause a rift in the forums, i know that sounds pretty extreme from me but whats the point of falling out over something stupid like this.

If you really want me too i will create a hitler thread so your arguing about the right topic in the right thread.

Just drop the Hitler thing and get back on to obama.
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soccer11
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Post by soccer11 »

I've never seen/heard anyone ever try to defend this argument. I'm still shocked.

Please grace us with some reasons as to why you think he's a good person?

edit: ahh mint you got in before me.
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klc123
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Post by klc123 »

Soccer11, im sorry because i cannot properly explain myself at the moment, if a hitler thread is made then please feel free to ask for my opinion and ill happily give it. In the short though, i haven't got many reasons for him been a good person, but i haven't got any reasons that make him more of a bad person than you or i.

Back on topic now?

How long do you think Obama will be in presidency.
mint
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Post by mint »

soccer11 wrote: ahh mint you got in before me.
One step ahead of you dude :wink:
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