Page 1 of 1

Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 13 Dec 2012, 22:13
by Rome_Leader
I think it's important we all acknowledge the Big Little Man as this time of year rolls around again... No, not Christmas. The Ballon D'or.

Surely he's a lock for the award again, and surely there's no more argument that he's not the best in the world (right?), but I think for me the questions still are:

1) Are there still a relatively large sect of of people that think he's either: A) Benefitted from a weak Spanish league (sans Madrid) or B) Benefitted from a midfield engine for the ages. Does anyone think either of these points are justified? (In my opinion, I don't think they are.)

2) Will people continue to deny him title of "best ever" no matter how many goals he scores or Ballon D'ors he wins if he isn't able to carry Argentina to World Cup glory?

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 13 Dec 2012, 22:43
by Zlatan5
I have no doubts that Messi is the best player in the world currently. But I think it would be ignorant to ignore the notion that he isn't being supplemented by two of the greatest midfielders of our generation. The thing that makes Messi so wonderful is that Barca plays to his strengths and habits, which were ingrained in him from a young age, being a product of their youth academy. But there will always be questions regarding him, for example: Any first rate striker would surely benefit from the midfield line that Barca fields, so if Messi were to be placed on another team, say Atletico or Inter Milan, would he be able to produce the sort of magic he does now? Sure he'll still be a great asset to the team, but will he be able to put up his "magesterial" statistics with another team. Until recently, an easy answer would be, no, simply because (until recently) has he been performing well with Argentina, whos midfield is good...but they are not Barca's.

I think it's unfair of people to deny him the "best ever" title, while I think he still has more to offer still. But, put things into perspective, who's the best ever? Maradonna? Pele? Ask yourself, look at who their competition was...particularly Pele. No doubt he was a level ahead of everyone else, he was playing 90's level soccer back in the 60's. Maradonna was playing 21st century (I guess you could say) level of football at his time. So what is Messi playing? Put things into perspective...if you were to insert either Maradonna or Pele into our current setting, could they achieve the things they did? Pele...1000 goals...not going to happen with todays defenders being so much stronger, smarter, and tactically better than they were during his days. Of course not to take anything away from Pele, he revolutionized the game, but so is Messi. You won't ever hear me say Messi is the best ever, not until he retires and I have time to reflect on his career. Personally I still believe Ronaldo can be better than him- he is as technically versed as Messi, but physically he buries Messi, only thing wrong with him is his psyche and ego.

Anyways I just finished a Philosophy final and still had some leftover analytical fuel left in my mind. So fu**.

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 14 Dec 2012, 02:28
by scottS4
I agree that Messi has benefited from the midfield maestros that Barcelona is so lucky to have, but you can't deny that alot of his goals are the result of his own individual brilliance. Iniesta and Xavi are great at supplying and assisting Messi, but they aren't involved when Messi dribbles right through 3 defenders on his own, or when he chips the keeper from inside the box while sprinting full speed.

As for your questions, Messi's huge goal tally is definitely helped by the (probably) weaker spanish league, but he also regularly scores 10+ goals per champions league, and scored 12 in 9 games for Argentina this year. As for the world cup, I think a stronger defence and a different manager at the last worlc cup would've given Argentina a decent chance of winning it. Therefore, I do think Messi is undoubtedly the best in the world.

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 14 Dec 2012, 14:17
by Rome_Leader
Very true about the eras Z5. A lot of people forget about that, especially in other sports, but I think in soccer it might matter most of all. If you look at any of sport, none of their balls have changed quite as much as the standard for footballs has. Gone from kicking around basically water logged medicine balls to perfectly engineered Adidas Tango '12s. Of course, the defensive talent also plays a huge role.
scottS4 wrote:I agree that Messi has benefited from the midfield maestros that Barcelona is so lucky to have, but you can't deny that alot of his goals are the result of his own individual brilliance. Iniesta and Xavi are great at supplying and assisting Messi, but they aren't involved when Messi dribbles right through 3 defenders on his own, or when he chips the keeper from inside the box while sprinting full speed.

As for your questions, Messi's huge goal tally is definitely helped by the (probably) weaker spanish league, but he also regularly scores 10+ goals per champions league, and scored 12 in 9 games for Argentina this year. As for the world cup, I think a stronger defence and a different manager at the last worlc cup would've given Argentina a decent chance of winning it. Therefore, I do think Messi is undoubtedly the best in the world.
Awesome justification fellow Scott! If I could rate posts anymore, this would deserve one from me. I agree with most of this. That Barca midfield could improve anyone's production markedly, it just so happens they are assisting probably the most brilliant talent to ever grace football.

More to the point, though, can these problems for Argentina be fixed?

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 14 Dec 2012, 16:26
by Croatianblood1
Lol sorry but I had to post this. I promise I will contribute positively later on

Image

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 15 Dec 2012, 15:58
by panchester07
Its both, every body benefits from the system of tiki-taka, and the system that barcelona has is benefited by Messi many times for the better as well.. He gives that verticality, provides that change of rythim and the ability to take on a lot of players with confidence and score goals, things that he adds personally to Barcelona because the posesion system and the biotype of the little catalans may be the 'best for creating chances, but might lack goals, or sometimes an indiidual flare that Pedro added to Spain in the World Cup and European Finals for example. He is benefited because he has the talent, if you look at his numbers this year with Argentina, he had more goals than matches in oficial matches and Argentina is soaring 1st looking strong in the lead of the South American qualifiers with Messi as their main man with the goals, the generation of game, and assists.

The little man, like rome pronounced him, has silenced the myths one by one. He now can even score them as free-kicks, as he did in both clasicos? Is that also thanks to Xavi and Iniesta :D :wink: ? Its 88 goals, and another extraterrestrial player is Ronaldo, yet he could only score 62, and tecnically "madrid was a better team the last season", since they won the league. I give him the credit he deserves, his numbers are ridicoulous, he is dominant in every match, if he doesn't score a hattrick in 2 weeks we are all wondering why he's undergoing "the crisis", he is clutch, he doesn't get injured, he's 25, he's amazing, in my opinion Pele is a bloody joke, Maradona is the best ever, and the rest like Best, Platini, Beckenbauer, Zidane are on a lower Pedlestall, Messi has more talent and is more of a beast, than any of the players I named, apart from Maradona, which I can still argue Messi hasn't surpassed yet.

If you haven't seen any of those numbers broken in your life time, and he has broken all the records he has at so young age, you haven't seen any retiring player do it, its because he's something diffent, and I mean it in a way that he probably will be the best ever, top 3 no doubt already.

Edit: About Argentina Romez, i've checked them out in this Sabella era, at first it was pure individual dependency, the Agueros, the Di Marias, Lavezzi, Messi and Higuian moving around and winning by a smaller margin because it would be short sparks of individual brilliance that would win them the game, but 7-8 months back to now, Sabella seems to have found the right balance, a solid defense that hasn't received many goals, a balanced midfield that can break down attacks and feed the ball foward, and a blessed foward that has bagged quite a few goals and won quite a few matches by 3-4 goal differences like Uruguay, who took it straight up the you know what :wink: I think they definetly are a solid competitive strong team now. Argentina dominates their rivals in every match now (in South America), and all the lines seem strong, theres no trouble in the defense, or in the midfield like there was, and therefor the attack is much sharper, furthermore they seem to be a unity defend and attack as whole, its not like 11 players scaterred around, they seem to move together and be one team, finally, and what Sabella did is play like Argentina has always traditionally played is working well .

a few images that say more than a thousand words:

Image

Image

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 30 Dec 2012, 05:09
by klc123
1. I believe the Spanish league to be the strongest in the world at the moment. It may be a two horse race (or a monopoly this year,) but if you take the lower teams and play them against teams of similar position from different leagues, I think the Spanish teams come out on top. Example, last year Bilbao ruined Manchester United in both games of a two leg affair to knock them out of the Europa league. That team finished second in the epl.
Also, I believe if you put barca and Real Madrid into any league in the world, the league becomes a two horse race. Of course this is highly hypothetical, in my opinion the point still remains.

2. The World Cup argument is void in my opinion. The only player to win a World Cup single handedly is maradona (IMO the greatest of all time). The thing you have to bear in mind is that the game has changed since maradona played drastically, and I doubt even he would be able to win a competition such as the World Cup on his own now.

3. For the record I don't believe messi is the greatest yet, but I'm certain he will get there. The guy improves every year and in the last 12 months he had begun to score more and more maradona esque goals.

I also think it will be an outrage if Ronaldo doesn't get second place. As much as I love xavi and iniesta, ronaldo is ridiculously good, and deserves his dues.

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 30 Dec 2012, 17:17
by Rome_Leader
Good points klc, especially the first. I don't think many, if any, would argue that RM/Barca would virtually trivialize any league. As many have shown so far this year, there isn't a lot of sullen fear about the rest of the teams in La Liga, though. They can, and sometimes do, take all three points from the giants.

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 03 Jan 2013, 16:36
by Croatianblood1
Do you guys think Argentina will win a World Cup sometime (with Messi)?

Also if Argentina were to win a world cup and Messi were to be a huge factor in winning it, do you think it would cement his legacy as the greatest ever?

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 04 Jan 2013, 16:20
by panchester07
1. I believe the Spanish league to be the strongest in the world at the moment. It may be a two horse race (or a monopoly this year,) but if you take the lower teams and play them against teams of similar position from different leagues, I think the Spanish teams come out on top. Example, last year Bilbao ruined Manchester United in both games of a two leg affair to knock them out of the Europa league. That team finished second in the epl.
Also, I believe if you put barca and Real Madrid into any league in the world, the league becomes a two horse race. Of course this is highly hypothetical, in my opinion the point still remains.
This is interesting. I always get in these debates iwth my friends. But klc, to be fair mate, you can't solely judge Man United or the premier league based on the two legged uefa europa league matches. To be totally honest lad, paul pogba started on the second leg when Man United had to comeback, and United barely offered resistance, to a hungry and in top form bilbao, which lost the form, and would probably take 4-5 goals from this present United.

La liga is probably the best league in terms of competivity, because Spain is the best country in the world in football right now. It appears they have the correct amount of ingredients well balanced, tactically they are changing the world of football, and spaniards are probably the most tecnical of all europeans. Dutch invented total football, and germans are pretty tecnical as well as italian but literally any spaniard even Arbeloa or Sergio Ramos can totally destroy a defenders spine by cutting him or dribbling him. Mata and Cazorla have had to immigrate to England to play, they don't start in the National Squad, and didn't even fit in Madrid or Barca and are by far the most tecnical players of each of their teams.

The only thing i disagree with is Madrid winning in any league of the world. I think the fact that Mourinho has come close of finding the "anti-barca" recipe doesn't mean that they are footbalisitcally on the same level. If you watched the champions league, Madrid was struggling to beat Manchester City, a team that didn't win a match in all the group stage, and Mourinho slid all over the Bernabeu as if he had just won the world cup, playing against a cowardly Mancini that had 8 defensive players in the pitch. Moving on, Dortmund owned them in Germany and tied them in an even game at home, they are 16 points behind barca, and this is why you don't quick fix anyteam, Barca is the best of the world, and Madrid is on a lower level, along with Dortmund, Juve, or Man United at the moment.! in my opinion that is...

if you pay attention to Mourinho's Madrid opposition in the round of 16th and quarter finals in their 2 previous seasons, they where put against teams like Apoel, Moscu, Totenham, and Lyon. They advanced into Semifinals both years and got knocked out both years when the competition increased. Against Barca and Bayern.

Its fine that people think Madrid can win, I just think its unfair that people look for the worst moment in United's history in the last 15 years, and identify it with the institution, United won't win because they lost to Bilbao last year., and its just not fair that people believe and spread the opinion that that piss poor form that we had 7-8 months ago "is United's real level" when united is sailing first and in form at the moment, something that they couldn't keep up last season for even a few weeks, if not then remember we were 8 points ahead just 4 matches away and we lost the lead. are we playing like that still? definetly no

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 04 Jan 2013, 21:29
by klc123
Panch,
I'm not just going off that tie on its own. Look at the league overall.

In Europa league, Spain have dominated it in recent years.

Take the bottom of the table on both sides.
I would favor Espanyol, Osasuna and Deportivo against Wigan, Reading and QPR.

You genuinely think United could beat Bilbao by 4-5 goals now? Bilbao have had a dreadful season and are off form, but I still think United would struggle to beat them, because they still play superior football.

The main problem I have with the EPL is that the majority of the teams seem to be living in a technical and strategical stone age. Out of the last 8 in the CL last year, only benfica played with 2 strikers. Everyone else has either a false nine or a traditional nine. Benfica ended up losing both games. The reason is due to the fact that having an extra midfielder, in either the shape of a number 10 or a holding midfielder is far more useful than an extra striker.

We will see in a few weeks time when United come up against Real Madrid. I think if Real sort their problems out, they will steam roll united and embarrass them in the same manor that Barcelona embarrassed them in 2011. The thing I don't understand is that Ferguson hasn't learned anything from that day, he still plays the same out dated 4-4-2 and the same footballing ideals.

In my honest opinion, RVP is a much better striker than Rooney, and Rooney should either be moved to the wings to shifted back into a proper 10/false 10 role, rather than wasting his time playing as an extra false nine. That is the only way I can see United becoming tactically good enough to stand up against the big boys in europe again.

Re: Let's Talk Messi.

Posted: 07 Jan 2013, 16:41
by panchester07
Haha thatt is funny that united can play against the big boys in europe, i think united is a BIG MAN in europe, lets be honest, from the 1990's to here, we are the winningest side in the best league, notice i said best and not hardest, and we do well in europe.

further more, the 4-4-2 argument is relative. its true that its a 4-4-2 some games, but in many games it becames a 4-2-3-1 or many variations, in addition to that saying that Sir Alex Ferguson needs to know more tactics is like saying Lio Messi doesn't have a left foot, if anyone knows tactics its this man.

Granted, he got raped by Barcelona and Bilbao, these two teams share a common trait that Madrid doens't have, posesion football. Madrid is a team that was built in 3 seasons, they play the typical 4-2-3-1, that most modern europe plays, including United and Borussia Dortmund or Bayern Munchen, in fact I think Fergie plays this way before Madrid or Munchen. Furthermore Madrid got raped by Dortmund and Struggled against City in both Matches, to say they would toy a far better team than City this season would be a guess that has not much solid footbalistical foundations and concrete evidence to back it up. To be honest, most people I've talked with say that United would win if the match would be now, but think about it, united is 7 points clear of city and Madrid struggles to get a win each week, it makes sense.

United's tactics aren't void or wrong, they are Fergie's flow and they are amazing, they can destroy anyteam if lucky, bar Barcelona, which we can't beat because they don't lend us the ball. Madrid also isn't barcelona, or ever will be so saying that Madrid will beat us like Barcelona did, is almost the same as saying we will beat Madrid because Chelsea beat Barca (yes i know, in the fiasco of the century) but you get my point. There fore, saying Madrid has football and United doesn't is a contradiction, because Madrid and Man United, Fergie and Mourinho, play very similar systems of football. In fact United wins the possesion in most matches as well and completely belittles and controls rivals.

I think Fergies system is top! There are 7-8 defenders in top form, Smalling, Ferdinand, Vidic, Phill Jones and Evans. Pick 2 and you have pretty good central defenders, on the wing theres Rafa which is pretty reliable, quick, pacey and assisting. evra or buttner on the other side, you have pretty good central midfielders, of the likes of Superb Carrick, decent fletcher, promising cleverly or skilled Anderson, theres Giggs as well. you have the best wingers in europe, like Nani, Young and Valencia which open the field and give you space and in the middle you have Wayne, which is god when given Space he can beat players and play a through ball to Van Persie with microscopic precision, and Van Persie is just van persie. more than 100 goals between both in the 2012.

I take it United last season was pathetic, but I think they deserve respect, they can beat the giants in europe because they are one, if not check them out weekly. Madrid is struggling at the moment, but in a month they might be better. Still, last year in top form they couldn't beat bayern munchen, or this season in better form they couldn't beat dortmund or city, and many teams in spain.. So if city, bayern, and dortmund could damage them and harm them, i don't think United has anything to be jealous of from these other sides, if they did it, United can harm and eliminate Madrid. Of course Madrid can win to, but I doubt they will have it easy, they can complicate themselves in easier matches, against a top rival opposition we will see how it does.