Can Messi be stopped?

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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 21 Apr 2010, 21:32

I don't think so, your making the Italians seem to be like bouncers when their really not, their just more physical than the Spanish which are probably the least physical in the world.

If the reason Messi was quite was because he cannot deal with players been physical, then why is it when he was a teenager he tormented Chelsea, which I would consider to be one of the most physical teams in the most physical league in the world?

Ronaldo could do it against English teams week in week out so surely Messi can do it against a team in a champions league match when the Referees tend to be a bit more "generous".

2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 » 21 Apr 2010, 22:02

klc you do understand that by your statement
Barcelona-Xavi= Barcelona with a poor Messi.
can't be correct if you consder that he's had multiple multi-goal/assist games without Xavi there. but I'm sick of debating this crap. I'm saying the final will likely be Inter vs. Bayern. They beat Lyon today and I predict they'll win next time aswell.

panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 21 Apr 2010, 22:57

Exactly, Messi has shined without Xavi.. I think its the fact that they asfixiated him and he always had a man marking him.. Mourinho effectively canceled him out.. The italian system has a lot to do, but also the fact that he had men on him at all time, also that Xavi was crowded and Inter's midfield won the midfield duel.... Combination of factors if you like..

I would like to hear Shahensa's input on things.
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 22 Apr 2010, 20:05

Your opinion of a good Messi and mine are very different things then.

Messi is nothing in my opinion when Xavi is not playing compared to when Xavi is playing, because the two just seem to play on a completely different level, whether it's to do with confidence I do not know but there is definitely something.

soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 22 Apr 2010, 20:53

klc123 wrote:Your opinion of a good Messi and mine are very different things then.

Messi is nothing in my opinion when Xavi is not playing compared to when Xavi is playing, because the two just seem to play on a completely different level, whether it's to do with confidence I do not know but there is definitely something.
yea, except for the goal he had against Bilao . .. or the hat trick Messi had against Zaragoza. And that's just as of late.
Obviously Barcelona is better when both are on the field and Messi is more productive with Xavi but it's pretty ignorant to say that he's "nothing" without Xavi when clearly he still produces.
I don't even like Messi but I'll give credit where credit is due.
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 23 Apr 2010, 16:43

I really don't understand? I said he is nothing without Xavi COMPARED to when he does have Messi.

The reason i say this is yes because he is still brilliant no matter who he plays with, but he sets the bar so high when he is with Xavi that to emphasize just how big the difference is, I said he is nothing COMPARED to.

panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 23 Apr 2010, 17:50

Xavi, Iniesta, Dani Alves I would say.. those three players make Messi shine the brightest...

Dani Alves, runs the ball and gives him good passes, versus the defender in Argentina that varies, but he often just boots the sh*t out of the ball and makes Leo chase it..

Xavi, assists him way precisely, right on his foot, and depending on the play, if Leo is make a run towards goal, Xavi gives a ball that will leave him 1 v 1, a pass into space.. If Leo is opening up towards the wing, Xavi gives the pass to his feet so he can control it and beat men, versus Veron, that is used to playing with fast strikers that he can just give 40 meter pass to..

Iniesta similar to Xavi in terms of assissting and passing it to Messi I would say..
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

shahensha
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Post by shahensha » 23 Apr 2010, 22:15

Cool I love these equations

Cronaldo + space to use his speed = amazing

Cronaldo - space to use his speed = nothing...

hey guys dont find this bogus, I am just stating my opinion :roll:............you can call me captain obvious for pointing that out when we all know its an opinion that will be agreed or disagreed with.

and yes that is all panchester. Arguing against messi being berated by klc has gotten very stale in my opinion. He has the awesome habit of continuing to dig a hole to continue this crap. There will be no facts. There will be bolding/italicising of words and ofcourse rearrangements of the same points he already made, however with different emphasis to a certain word this time

Brown and S11 have already pointed out facts that perfectly refute his equation.

Also I find it very awesome that a Xavi less Barcelona with a poor Messi (who was rocking the captain's armband) scored a hat-trick against Atletico in the Vicente Calderon and got a standing ovation from the audience...........which included Maradona

If being nothing or poor is enough to envoke Diego The fu**ing Maradona to give up a standing ovation, then I would love to be even a little nothing or poor...

Also the inter game would have been different if the ref was intelligent and if Yaya and Iniesta played to bring a peace of mind to a frustrated Xavi, but then again that will not be fair to Chelsea and Arsenal fans. Inter were an excellent team that Barcelona'd Barcelona itself, with high pressure and quick counters. Simple as that. You cant use one game to form a formula that is true for all games.
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 24 Apr 2010, 13:40

Seeing as your the one of the people that said to me "using stastistics and facts to say one player is better than the other" is not correct,

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:)

I didn't realise anyone would get such a kick in the balls from me calling Messi poor without Xavi.

Let me kiss them better?

Wanderer
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Post by Wanderer » 24 Apr 2010, 15:19

I hate how ef has turned from a jokin community with hot girls to a squabblin community

TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 24 Apr 2010, 15:37

I don't think the question is that simple. You make it sound like teams HAVEN'T stopped Messi from being effective. I'll just go with what's fresh from this past week, Inter Milan and Espanyol. The physical nature and counter style of Inter did handcuff Messi quite a bit. With that being said, anyone will get space and touches in a 90 minute period. It really depends on the quality of those deliveries like many have said, arguing that Xavi is a big distributor to Messi. That's usually the case and I'd say that limiting those deliveries will definitely hinder his ability to create chances for Barcelona. Messi is someone that doesn't really need space, but will create it from his speed and skill with the ball. I think that you can put someone close on him and ever double him at some times, but you are leaving open either Ibra, Xaxi, Iniesta, Pedro, Bojan so it's a gamble. Can he be stopped/limited? Yes. Are many clubs effective at it? No. Anyone can be stopped/limited with the right strategy.
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 24 Apr 2010, 15:48

I agree, it would be possible to stop him if you had 3 defenders marking him at all times, that would render any player pretty ineffective in terms of them getting the ball and scoring, however, the fact that there are three less defenders some where else means he is still of massive benefit to the team.

I hate how EF is sometimes a place where everyone moans about heated debates and is able to give as much as they want but starts crying and points the finger of immaturity at anyone who gives it back. But that's just me.

shahensha
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Post by shahensha » 24 Apr 2010, 16:41

klc123 wrote:Seeing as your the one of the people that said to me "using stastistics and facts to say one player is better than the other" is not correct,

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:)

I didn't realise anyone would get such a kick in the balls from me calling Messi poor without Xavi.

Let me kiss them better?
LMAO I am sure you would love being tea-bagged.... :lol:

I dare you to find the word "immature" and "crying" on this thread though. Once you find it, note who is the user who posted it....

Its ironic you disaprove of EF turning into a petty quarreling fish-market when you are a major contributor to it.
Seeing as your one of the people that said to me, "using statistics and facts to say one player is better than the other" is not correct
:lol: That is true but we are NOT comparing two players here. We are speaking of ONE player and figuring out his performance without a certain player. How can we find a way to measure one player's performance with or without a certain teammate? Satistics.


I will tell you this with the decency that you have no idea how to use. This is why i dont like having debates with you. If you dont know how to refute the points a person makes you either completely ignore it, start name calling or copy and pasting stupid pics...............all because you dont know how to refute that point.
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TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 24 Apr 2010, 17:45

shahensha wrote:Cool I love these equations

Cronaldo + space to use his speed = amazing

Cronaldo - space to use his speed = nothing...
ehhh....I can't agree. If anything, his speed CREATES the space. Unfortunately, he tries to be the standout among standouts. If he was less selfish, Real Madrid would be more successful in their attack. He's a huge dead ball threat and I think he's more dangerous if you play him close, due to his ability to beat defenders will skill and trickery...not speed. Not saying you're wrong, but you're oversimplifying what you're saying.
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shahensha
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Post by shahensha » 24 Apr 2010, 17:47

That was my point. I was giving an example of over-simplifying things that way...i obviously know what cronaldo is capable of.
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