Europe vs South America

Forum about the biggest sporting event in the world
klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 02 Jul 2011, 06:37

Panchester if I lack the mental ability to debate, then why have you failed to come up with any sort of counter argument to my points? You have consistently got the wrong end of the stick from my points when no one else has, and then completely ignored them when I make them crystal clear to you. If anyone is incompetent, and I'm sure everyone else who has read through this thread would agree, it is certainly not me.

Anyway. Result 1-1...oh dear. After going one down argentina struggled to find the equaliser in a display that eurosport says was "infuriating going forwards and extremely susceptible at the back." funny how things work out isn't it?

New manager, same Argentina.

Rome_Leader
The Italian Mod
Posts: 3028
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 22:03

Post by Rome_Leader » 02 Jul 2011, 09:35

On the plus side, Aguero looked good when he came on. Maybe it's time to think about starting him, especially if form doesn't pick up and we can't chalk this one up to "rust"?
Image

All roads lead to Rome.

Triskaidekaphobia: The unnatural fear of the number 13.
Most of Ballack's opposition have this phobia.

I'm Scott. Don't let the title fool you; I.AM.CANADIAN!

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 02 Jul 2011, 12:34

Personally I think Aguero should always be a starter, he brings a lot more to the table than Tevez, he is more flexible/adaptable and he also links up better with Messi from what I have seen of them together. The fact that he links up with Messi so well is in my opinion more than enough to make him a no brainer. Someone as talented as Messi is always going to be brilliant, you just have to situate players that will inter-play with him regardless of quality and he will cause any team damage.

Argentina do have potential to be world beaters, if only they got the whole team playing together.

eddy192837
Veteran Member
Posts: 416
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 03:14

Post by eddy192837 » 02 Jul 2011, 12:46

Really nick im wrong? Then whats stopping us from having the same competition of play like the ones in Europe and South America? Whats stopping the US from playing a completely better game Whats stopping US players to play in places like England, Spain, etc.? Please enlighten me nick.. though I already know the answer

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 02 Jul 2011, 12:55

I'm not an expert but it would appear the reasons there is a lack of good US players are:
-They have no role models from the US to look up to.
-It is too hard to make it as a professional footballer in the US.
-More media coverage/popularity for other sports in America.

Two of those problems are pretty unavoidable unless there is a massive change in popular culture in the US, and the one that they can change, would require spending from the government which isn't likely at this moment in time unfortunately...
Last edited by klc123 on 02 Jul 2011, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.

Rome_Leader
The Italian Mod
Posts: 3028
Joined: 19 Jun 2007, 22:03

Post by Rome_Leader » 02 Jul 2011, 13:54

I agree with klc. However, I think #2 is the biggest reason, and it's the one that can be fixed most easily. Kids will always seek the best role models anyway, so unless the next Messi comes from the US, it's not a stretch to see kids having European and South American idols.

I see the American situation as mirroring Canada's, since we share a continent and basically a culture. The youth structure is there, and it's fantastic. More kids play minor soccer than minor hockey in Canada (mainly because it's way cheaper). However, somewhere along the line, usually when it comes time to dedicate to one sport, promising soccer atheletes are lost to other sports. Kobe Bryant used to play soccer quite well. Steve Nash too. There are just no easy venues for kids to progress, whereas hockey and basketball have graduated tiers everywhere designed to help you progress to the college game, and thensome.

One of the big glaring holes is lack of established, well-funded youth academies which are present in Brazil, England and what have you. These academies would ideally train and mentor children from their early years until they matured enough to progress to a league.

But what league? The MLS is a pipedream for many, inaccessible and not really all that good a league anyway. However, if some funding was poured into the USL, and serious work put in at developing a tier system like we see in the big professional leagues, more incentive would be there to become a pro, coupled with an easier mechanism with which to do so.

I'm a firm believer that the culture can and will change, if the funding is provided. The only problem is getting the funding without a wealthy entrepreneur taking point, or the government backing an initiative. This is tough, given the much greater problems facing North American society and the other more established sports that need funding. Kind of a Catch-22. :p But if any of us should come into several billion dollars, well, that's a start. ;/
Image

All roads lead to Rome.

Triskaidekaphobia: The unnatural fear of the number 13.
Most of Ballack's opposition have this phobia.

I'm Scott. Don't let the title fool you; I.AM.CANADIAN!

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 02 Jul 2011, 14:19

Precisely, it really comes down to money.

The reason the European game has benefited so much over the years is because so many people are willing to pay to watch football. This means there is money to be made, and where-ever people can make money, there will always be big investors to cream it.

People say money has ruined the nature of the game. In some respects I agree with this, in terms of teams like Man City trying to buy success. However I also think the level of European football as a whole has made massive leaps forwards due to the money and investment.

panchester07
Veteran Member
Posts: 3849
Joined: 27 Aug 2007, 04:25

Post by panchester07 » 02 Jul 2011, 17:36

Hmmm - I think the problem with Argentina is that they can't develop a proper attacking and playing system -

The goal wasn't exactly a defensive mistake to be honest, and the defense was pretty good, i mean, Bolivia counterattacked really fast, castenacchio style, mourinho vs barca style, they crowded the midfield too well, and covered the spaces well and they had like 2 shots on goal in the whole match that where waaay uncomfortable and that the keeper saved with ease- They didn't have any clear chances, the defense never let them, and the goal, was one of the few corners they had, that this lad heeled, and banega(not a defender) shanked and messed up, i relly don't know what he was thinking or trying to do, as it could be called a defensive mistake or blooper, its nothing anyone on here, or espn called before it happened, it was a freaking sh*t shot and he kind of got an epilepsy in his foot and it entered the goal? (did it cross completely???)

Its not like Bolivia made a wonderful play, and outran the defender, then beat Burdisso and Millitto, and then finished with the goal keeper, not precisely, it was the luckiest goal i've seen in a while, and the defense had nothing to do with it, it was Banega's responsibility to be 100% honest -

I've posted a long while on here how Aguero HAS to be a starter, in the same way that i've posted many things on here that people repeart weeks later as if they just found out when i've being saying it a week back -- Klc, the "team not being just stars" argument i posted in the beggining of the thread, I started by saying that Spain is all Barca and Madrid mostly, and that Argentina are all scattered over the world, yet you come and bring that point up against me, like if I never everyhoughy of it, and you where bringing me out of my ignorance, it was something so obvious that i already posted - i know thats their problem

Argentina was obviously better, they had to be, but i was completely wrong about them, I watch their friendlies and they looked dominant, they looked fierce, they looked vertical, with 5-6 passes and movements they created danger, and Messi looked like the one from Barcelona - But when the real tournament started, they didn't play that way, and i think Bolivia did a nice job of parking the bus -


I would say that if Argentina keeps playing this way, this tournament is surely brazil's, but check this out, the world cup was LAST year, and these team have played what? at the maximum 3 games together, and neither of them is the machine we are used to, not brazil or Argentina, butttt I still think Neymar, Ganso, Pato, and Robinho, plus the brilliant bench they have will combine well together, and probably win the tournament unless Argentina finds their chemistry soon -

Colombia vs Costa Rica very sooon
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 02 Jul 2011, 18:28

I just re-read your post again from earlier and it sounded more like you were talking about why the old Argentina side were not good. You were talking about Maradona being coach having a negative impact as well. Well my point was that although Argentina have a lot of potential from their talented players, they are not world beaters because they do not play together. That has being my point from the very beginning. You were the one saying that I am talking boloney. Yet you are now saying that you were indeed saying what I am saying? Make your mind up.

Bolivia did a good job of parking the bus from what I heard, but at the same time even if they park the bus, the "worlds best attacking side" should be able to break them down at least more than once. Fair enough if Argentina had a very off game, credit to the fact that for many players they will not have played since the end of their representative leagues finished, but I doubt Brazil will be struggling in the same manner.

That game isn't conclusive proof by any means, but it is more evidence that Argentina are the over-rated side everyone thinks they are in my opinion. I'm sorry, I know you will take offensive and start flaming that again, but that is just my opinion. France have been more successful in the last 20 years than Argentina in the World Cup but no one over-rates them, I don't see why Argentina gets the same respect. I think many people look at the squad and go "wow, they must be good" without ever seeing the team play and display their lack of chemistry.

panchester07
Veteran Member
Posts: 3849
Joined: 27 Aug 2007, 04:25

Post by panchester07 » 02 Jul 2011, 19:09

panchester07 wrote:
I think, its a matter of: Argentina for example, Messi, Masche, Milito in Barcelona, Milito, Zanetti, Cambiasso in Inter Milan, Di Maria, Higuian, Garay in real madrid they are in top european clubs and are key in these teams, often the stars, mvp's and playing important roles, but they are scattered all over europe, and once you put them together its a mess to get some chemistry, -
I said that in the beggining of the thread, and a few posts later, you started going yeah but a team is not made of stars its a unit bla bla bla, i was like wtf? i said that so long ago, and your saying it in a tone that you just discovered the cure for aids, or discovered a lost continent, when in reality, its an issue they've been having for 20 years or so -


I think argentina needs a few games, and they're football will improve, they'll chemistry will improve, and they'll start playing to the level the world knows they can play too- granted they aren't brazil or italy in terms of winning, the real argentina never would tie bolivia in home, they need to generate mroe possibilities and improve their tactics - the movement of the ball, it shouldn't be Messi beating 3 and setting some up, it shouldn't be Di MAria cutting through the defenders and then trying to set some body up, they should move the ball from right to left, and move themselves in a way that they just have to make the effort to beat a defender in the final third, they have the hard part, to have the best players, they need to start making plays- the real argentina is top 5 of the world, and football fans know that, up there with germany, italy, brazil, probably england and argentina, but haters and and rivals don't wanna see that, they are using this hard times the nation is passing thru to belittle what the country has done in favor of football and say they where never a big team :roll:

Spain was also very criticized in the first match of the world cup, and we all know how that turned out - till 2008, Spain hadn't won anything in 40 years, where they overrated? where they not really a big team? not quite
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

nick117
Veteran Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 27 Aug 2009, 23:14

Post by nick117 » 02 Jul 2011, 19:48

eddy192837 wrote:Really nick im wrong? Then whats stopping us from having the same competition of play like the ones in Europe and South America? Whats stopping the US from playing a completely better game Whats stopping US players to play in places like England, Spain, etc.? Please enlighten me nick.. though I already know the answer

1 the sport simply isn't popular here not really anyways. The top athletes will never play soccer 90% switch so they can go for a real paying athletic career or just stop all together. 2 did you really just say south america, they really aren't anything special besides a few wonder kids who obviously practice 9x more than anyone here with again comes with the sport being popular. It's obvious more and more players are going to England so that point is just stupid. So i guess your entire post is full of stupid...

As a further example lets look at our american football players. We have a ridiculous # who run 4.1-4.5 40 yard dashes. We could put out so many walcott and lennon types who are fast as hell with a good touch if they actually cared. America tends to have some of the best athletes in the world (overall) they just don't give a damn about the sport.

eddy192837
Veteran Member
Posts: 416
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 03:14

Post by eddy192837 » 02 Jul 2011, 20:12

Damnnn nick you can never be wrong...Your're telling me that South American players are nothing special, oh really than why are there almost 4 south american players in almost every premier league team.. How many USA players are in epl like 3 or 4... Wow thats alot, am i right nick? Also the competition in places like Argentina is alot more physical and harder than the youth competition down here in USA and thats a factt, cuz ive experienced it (go down there yourself if you dont believe me)... Why are there a bunch of south american players playing in spain? Because they have a better youth system that makes them work harder obviousely.. It being 10x better than the one here in US.. And yeahh we dont have the passion which means we are simply not good enough. And thats my point USA youth system can not compare with those in the likes of South America or Europe.. Maybe if we began to care about the sport like in Europe or South American teams, we could definetely improve our youth system which at the moment can not compare.. And please dont shut me up kid

Juicygriot17
Junior Member
Posts: 76
Joined: 28 Apr 2010, 00:08

Post by Juicygriot17 » 02 Jul 2011, 20:39

ehh its not about caring about football, its about funding and supporting. our academies are far and few in between and its hard for many to join them. of course there are great players everywhere, in africa, the caribbean, but there are the few lucky who join a club that funds and supports the growth of the players. Think Barcelona, they were able to take on Messi's illness and support him

nick117
Veteran Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 27 Aug 2009, 23:14

Post by nick117 » 02 Jul 2011, 21:44

because i'm always right. There league is nothing special. They have the athletes who want to play the sport which is the exact reason why they do well. So my point is proven stop talking because you don't know what your talking about. Furthermore the MLS is what 20 years old with 1 failed attempt? Wait till the # of mls teams = nfl teams (assuming we have nfl teams this year) and then let me know how america is doing vs country's who have 6x the age of us.

eddy192837
Veteran Member
Posts: 416
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 03:14

Post by eddy192837 » 03 Jul 2011, 05:14

Alright then i guess in the next ten years we will see what happens, hopefully for the better. But at the momemt im saying we dont compare (and yes becuase we havent played for as many years as them). You never know maybe we will have a system like that one day or maybe even better

Post Reply