Europe vs South America

Forum about the biggest sporting event in the world
soccer11
Admin
Posts: 4870
Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:40
Location: Michigan, USA

Post by soccer11 » 01 Jul 2011, 13:58

Well Badstuber wasn't a starter, but yea, Mertesacker isn't a star, Freidrich isn't a star. The only "world class" defender they have is Phillip Lahm but Germany doesn't need world class defenders accross their back line. In Euro qualifying, they've only allowed 3 goals I believe. Defense isn't an individual task. A team like Germany has great organization and are able to have a great defense without the big stars.

And I'm not just picking on Argentina. Look at Brazil. At last years World Cup they had (at the time) the best right back, possibly the best centerback. Stars all accross the board but couldn't get it done. Europe has a tendency to produce more complete teams, at least in the last 15 years or so, which is why i prefer it.

And I don't think it's childish to call Argentina's defense unreliable. They are, until proven otherwise, which they can do in the coming weeks. Maybe they have some good individuals but as a team, they weren't very reliable. We'll see coming up here though.
Image

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 01 Jul 2011, 15:25

A team is more than a collection of talented players. It is a unit. When every member of the team is playing as part of that unit, it doesn't matter about the quality of individuals, because the chemistry of the team is unbeatable.

This is how Spain are the best team in the world. Yes they have Xavi and Iniesta, imo the best centre midfielder's in the world hands down, but the rest of the team isn't all at that level. It is the fact that the entire team plays in the same way together, that is how they dominate.

Panch, being solid is not what we are talking about. All of the professional teams have a good defence, good midfield and good offensive, otherwise they wouldn't be professional. But when you want to be competitive, you have to compare them to the competition, and as you said, there are many teams with much better defences.

BTW any arguments about European teams player boring defensive football whilst the South American teams play with "flair and heart" is utter bulls**t. I watched a lot of the world cup games, nearly all of Argentina's. I saw no "flair" and very little "heart". What I did see was shaky defending coupled with average ability going forward due to bad tactical decisions. This analysis wasn't exclusive to Argentina either, Brazil were certainly not playing "brazilian" in any way or manner.

Spain for me played the best football and most consistent football of the tournament. Germany was the next best, they were in my opinion the best tactically, and the only reason they lost was lack of experience in the side, something which the side will have in the next tournament.

There was only 1 South American team in the Semi's for the 2010 WC. 3 European teams. They came in as:
1. Spain
2. Nederlands.
3. Germany
4. Uruguay

Uruguay arguably played the best football out the south america's and they only finished 4th.

Edit:
Argentina's attack is certainly not the best in the world by any measure. They scored 10 goals in the tournament. Not bad, but not the best.
Nederlands had 12 goals, Uruguay had 11 and Germany had 16...
On terms of goals per game, Germany were miles ahead of everyone, and therefore would be classed as the best attacking side. As a side note, they also conceded half as many goals/per game average as Argentina. No point scoring goals if your leaking them.
Last edited by klc123 on 01 Jul 2011, 15:33, edited 1 time in total.

panchester07
Veteran Member
Posts: 3849
Joined: 27 Aug 2007, 04:25

Post by panchester07 » 01 Jul 2011, 15:27

And I don't think it's childish to call Argentina's defense unreliable. They are, until proven otherwise, which they can do in the coming weeks. Maybe they have some good individuals but as a team, they weren't very reliable. We'll see coming up here though.
How is a defense shaky untill proven otherwise when the times and game they've played they barely let in any goals? Its the other way around unfortunately pal, they are solid untill proven unreliable -

I can't just say portugal's midfield is slow until proven otherwise just because i feel like it, i have to see actual matches where they have been slow, etc, you aren't given any evidence to support of cases and scenarios when the defense of argentina was shaky, because they are none, so logically you're argument is proven 100% void - you can't predict the future, you can't see what will happen tomorrow, or in a year, so you can say that is unreliable because so far its a positive mark for the defense -

Brazil was one of the most complete teams of the tournament, and i'm starting to think your biased, Brazil was so complete, they won everythin in the Dunga days, won by a landslide the qualification rounds in South America and whre 1st, beat Argentina home and away during the league rounds for the world cup, and won the cup of confederations - they where solid, balanced, stable as you can get, and defensively oriented - Must i remind you a european team got knocked out by the states, and then brazil took care of you guys?

I'm just saying, you have to open your mind, and analyze the way brazil got knocked out of the world cup, an own goal by felipe melo, and if thats not enough he commits a silly foul to leave his team with 10, that team was favorite, strong, balanced, and just was unlucky - and if you can't see that you need some football orientation lessons -

You are making it sound like Netherlands just wooped them 4-0, when it was a close game diffenetly affected by the stupidities of melo - but it had been solid and as balanced as it gets, more so than most european teams, more so definetly that spain so far that had suffered in the back vs Chile, Paraguay, Switzerland, and co- More so than germany that had troubles with ghana and had a hard time with Serbia - SON IM KILLING YOU with facts -
Well Badstuber wasn't a starter, but yea, Mertesacker isn't a star, Freidrich isn't a star. The only "world class" defender they have is Phillip Lahm but Germany doesn't need world class defenders accross their back line. In Euro qualifying, they've only allowed 3 goals I believe. Defense isn't an individual task. A team like Germany has great organization and are able to have a great defense without the big stars.
I get it, so Germany doens't need any big names in the back, they can defend with players that nobody knows, but when argentina has 1 defender playing for inter milan as a captain, another one is a second stringer in barcelona, the other one is roma's main man in the back, and the other one is a local star thats rising up, add to that masche and cambiasso, which are key in their own clubs - then that defense is "unreliable" until they prove they aren't -

What about brazil, Dani Alves best right back in the world, lucio no commments, thiago silva - animal, andres santos decent okay - thats an incomplete defense - but germany can have friedich and badsutber and mertesacker and they are a complete defense - gimme a break will ya
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 01 Jul 2011, 15:34

Panchester as I have already stated, individuals mean nothing if you can't defend as a team.

On paper England should have the best defence in the world looking at where all of the players play for club. But they clearly don't. Your logic is completely flawed.

soccer11
Admin
Posts: 4870
Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:40
Location: Michigan, USA

Post by soccer11 » 01 Jul 2011, 15:59

Panch, you keep bringing up what good teams the south american defenders play for, and it's true. I'm not debating you on that. What I am debating you on is that you don't need these well known players to be successful. I would rather have my defenders from some middle of the pack team that can come together very well than 4 stars who can't gel.

How is a defense shaky untill proven otherwise when the times and game they've played they barely let in any goals? Its the other way around unfortunately pal, they are solid untill proven unreliable -
They were proven shaky in the world cup. Once they show that they can do it in tournament play (these next few weeks) i'll change my opinion on them. I would think they'd definitely be stronger this time around just by looking at the team selection. It'll come down to how well they can gel as a unit. I'm actually really looking forward to Copa America. It should be a good tournament.

And I don't think I'm biased. I picked Brazil to win the cup last summer because I thought they were the best overall team. Turned out to be wrong unfortunately.
Image

eddy192837
Veteran Member
Posts: 416
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 03:14

Post by eddy192837 » 01 Jul 2011, 16:17

Collin, you think im from Australia....? Haaahhhhaaaaaa too bad im from USA buddy.. We suck and i know it.. Its just we dont touch or anything. We cag it up thats it... And dont tell me im wrong because im not. Anyways when they get me on the team that might be a different story because i have been invited to national team tryouts(; But anyways back to topic: the USA youth system sucks which means USA national team are bound to suck. now let me tell you why.. Good thing im in a club that touches here in the US cuz if i wasnt id be in real sh*t.. Anyways back to youth system.. I play in region premier league (highest league of competition in USA besides academy teams which i made one of the teams but they are in it just for mOney and not better than my club team in which 4 national team players are on my team but only one being 1st string).. Anyways in region premier league most teams are composed of tall strong players that just do longballs (we destroy those teams TOUCHING) and they are supposed to be the best in their state? Cmon at least touch a little but no, long ball and strength is all they rely on.. No ability whatsoever.. USA has to teach their youth players to touch like Spain, Brazil, and all the other powerhouses. We cant just rely on long balls like we do alot of which is why we get destroyed by Spain and the other teams. Now let me tell you a story.. When i went to Argentina i was soo surprised by the talent they had.. Everyone could touch, everyonr had the technical abilities and no matter how strong, short, skinny they were, they could touch and play the game. On the day where scouts from Division 1 teams from all over argentina like boca, estudiantes, and a bunch of others, i was put into the best team they had. It was composed of kids my age already going to teams like Boca, Estudiantes, River,etc. Everyone on my team was amazing. We touched here touche their and always prgressing forward and always endimg with a shot on goal. And the funny thing was these two twins that were short little skinny kids were the best their and boy could they play the game. Why can we be like Argentina or other places. Why cant all of our youth system learn to touch and avoid always playing long balls and running after balls... Our youth system is fcked up but if we get that sh*t straight id be more than sure that we'd be a powerhouse too. Oh and also fire Bob bradley while your at it

eddy192837
Veteran Member
Posts: 416
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 03:14

Post by eddy192837 » 01 Jul 2011, 16:53

And not saying US is soo bad or anything, just saying we could be so much better

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 01 Jul 2011, 17:37

That is exactly my point S11.

Panchester's points remind me of a few years back when everyone was saying that England should have the best team in the world looking at the teams the entire squad plays for.

It just doesn't work that way, a team of individuals will succeed at nothing.

Look at the Spanish team, pretty much the entire starting 11 play for Real Madrid and Barcelona. So most of them are used to playing with each other already. The whole squad plays as a team and they win. That is as simple as it gets.

Argentina may have Messi, the best player in the world, but he is worth nothing if the team doesn't play with him properly, and it is fact that Argentina don't.

You wouldn't say Portugal are the second best attacking team in the world because they have Ronaldo would you?

As I have already said, the Germans were the best attacking side because they played together, despite not having any one player that stood out from the rest.

panchester07
Veteran Member
Posts: 3849
Joined: 27 Aug 2007, 04:25

Post by panchester07 » 01 Jul 2011, 18:21

soccer11 wrote:Panch, you keep bringing up what good teams the south american defenders play for, and it's true. I'm not debating you on that. What I am debating you on is that you don't need these well known players to be successful. I would rather have my defenders from some middle of the pack team that can come together very well than 4 stars who can't gel. .

They were proven shaky in the world cup. Once they show that they can do it in tournament play (these next few weeks) i'll change my opinion on them.
Ohhh, okay, i tho
ught you where saying they had a terrific attack but there defense was nobody - But hold on a minute, just becasue Argentina had a drug addict for a manager last world cup, doesn't mean all their defenses have to be shaky, there isn't 1 player from argentina's defense in the world cup that plays now, so i don't know how you can defend that point man, again, THERES NOT 1 PLAYER FROM THE WORLD CUP IN THIS DEFENSE and haven't seen these players be shaky EVER, so you can't say they are unreliable, until they do something unreliable MATE

1) in the world cup, the manager, never went to manager school
2) he was a former drug addict
3) he's made multiple CLEAR AND OBVIOUS tactical mistakes
4) that defense was shaky
5) theres no player from THAT defense, on the present defense
6) THAT defense WAS shaky, THIS defense IS NOT
7) I can not say that because Pellegrini's defense in Madrid was shaky, Mourinho's one is shaky, your doing the same but worse


And I don't think I'm biased. I picked Brazil to win the cup last summer because I thought they were the best overall team. Turned out to be wrong unfortunately
Why where they not the best? Because one stupid player made an own goal and that got a silly red? Because Spain struggled to beat Chile, and Brazil wooped them 3-0 .... Games are different, Paraguay played BETTER than Spain, Casillas saved a pk, and Paraguay got a goal called off, is Spain better player for player, yes, but they sh*t their pants scared because they almost said goodbye to their dream - Football is funny, the best team not always wins, specially in tournaments like these, and i thought you where better than saying Brazil clearly wasn't the better team if you check out their previous matches, and the retarded way they got knocked out FELIPE MELO
Argentina may have Messi, the best player in the world, but he is worth nothing if the team doesn't play with him properly, and it is fact that Argentina don't.

You wouldn't say Portugal are the second best attacking team in the world because they have Ronaldo would you?

As I have already said, the Germans were the best attacking side because they played together, despite not having any one player that stood out from the rest.
What are yuo talknig about ? When was the last time you saw Argentina ?

Is Argentina just Messi? OF COURSE NOT, there are 5 or 6 other strikers that are stars in their teams and wanted all over the world, thats why, erase Messi from them and they would still have the best offensive in the world , i shouldn't have to explain this to you at this stage, but i'll be patient -

I can't wait for Argentina to play today, and shut down all the criticisim maradona's team had, this is another team, where the best play, and with a manager that knows what his sh*t, not a drug addict--

Its funny that now not only the defense is unreliable, the attack is "just stars" but they can't play together, what else sucks about them, is the whole country a sh*t hole klc? Should they not even exist? Watch the game tonight son, so you can talk smart things tomorrow(if talking smart things is possible for you) and not crazy miths you have in your head, santa claus isn't real either mate - how can you judge, if the only game they had they DESTROYED, albania 4-0 and only gave them 28% of possesion? how is that defense shaky and that attack all stars-

I'm not posting anymore untill tomorow, after i watch the game, i don't know why i'm gonna watch it, because according to you klc the attack is all stars and only messi, i mean, messi can'¡t beat 11 players so why should i watch it, right? aguero doesn't know how to play, neither does tevez, di maria, milito or higuian, that team is only messi, so why should i spend time watching that team huh? better wath portugal - :roll: :roll:

Luckilly for me, i live on planet earth, and in reality, and i've been following argentina and know they are playing football and the defense is holding up well, and the attack is looking scary and combining greatly, thats why i know tonight i'm gonna be able to see a big score line, my only wish is that tomorrow i don't come on here and the same fool ignorant, saying how "its all messi", or its just stars and how ole gunar solksjaer is better :arrow: :arrow:

luckily i don't have to talk or write anymore, tonight, i'm gonna see argentina score a lot, and defend well, and tomorrow we can see who was right, i know i'm gonna be right, because i have been watching friendly's since the world cup, unlike others who are saying they aren't good based on the shyte team they had in south africa-
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

soccer11
Admin
Posts: 4870
Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:40
Location: Michigan, USA

Post by soccer11 » 01 Jul 2011, 19:22

if the only game they had they DESTROYED, albania 4-0 and only gave them 28% of possesion? how is that defense shaky and that attack all stars-
not to argue, but when the other team only has 28% of the possession, it's not really a good indication of the type of defense the other has.


I am also looking forward to this game. I fully expect Argentina to win by 2 or 3 goals tonight. Their group is pretty easy so I see them easily go through to the next round.


Edit: From ESPN's Copa America preview.
Like at last summer's World Cup, Argentina's weaknesses are at the back. The goalkeeping position is still up for grabs, with Sergio Romero the favorite, and Juan Pablo Carrizo -- amazingly, the only player in the squad based in Argentina -- the challenger. A back four of Javier Zanetti, Nicolas Burdisso, Gabriel Milito and Marcos Rojo is expected, prompting serious questions about the lack of pace in the center. That could mean Argentina will be forced to defend too deep, and suffer the same lack of compactness that exposed it so obviously in the crushing 4-0 defeat to Germany last summer.
Last edited by soccer11 on 01 Jul 2011, 20:09, edited 1 time in total.
Image

nick117
Veteran Member
Posts: 1105
Joined: 27 Aug 2009, 23:14

Post by nick117 » 01 Jul 2011, 20:08

the problem is eddy you are wrong. Also paragraphs are your friend.

klc123
Veteran Member
Posts: 2820
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26

Post by klc123 » 01 Jul 2011, 20:22

Congratulations Panch, you've managed to miss the point more than a Beckham penalty yet again.

I did not say that Messi was all Argentina had going forwards. Likewise Ronaldo isn't all that Portugal has going forwards. I was using it as a point to show you have even the best players in the world have to be playing in a unit.

That is the problem with Argentina, the forwards don't play together. For your benefit however I'll make this clearer. NONE OF THEM INCLUDING MESSI PLAY TOGETHER AS WELL AS THEY DO FOR THEIR SEPERATE CLUBS THEREFORE IT DOESN'T MAKE ONE fu**ing DIFFERENCE HOW GOOD THEY CAN ALL PLAY FOR THEIR CLUBS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT RECREATE THAT LEVEL FOR ARENGENTINA.

I also like how you completely ignored all my points about how Germany are a better attacking side.

We will see in the next world cup. When Argentina have decent opposition again. You say Maradona is the only reason Argentina were sh*t, I disagree.

England have had every type of manager under the sun over the last decade, some having previous success, some not. Yet England still do not play as a unit. Why is Argentina going to be any different?

Want to know what the German and Spanish sides have in common? Many of the players play for the same clubs together. Also, many of the players play in their own countries league.

Likewise, England and Argentina, all of the international players are split up in different teams or in different leagues. But I suppose that is pure coincidence right?
:roll:

And Panch, Argentina are playing Bolivia? No matter the score line it won't exactly make our points incorrect.

I love how calm and compose this thread was before you returned to it, and how people were having a good discussion. The day you come back we are back to flaming and trolling. Ironic seeing as this is your thread trying to "get the effing ball rolling!!!?!?!?!?!!!!111".

panchester07
Veteran Member
Posts: 3849
Joined: 27 Aug 2007, 04:25

Post by panchester07 » 01 Jul 2011, 22:03

Yeah KLC, a long time ago i convinced myself you don't fill in the mental requirments to debate with you, so you can talk to the hand, or whatever, i simply don't care what you say, you just are too ignorant or whatever ur problem is to be in a debate and 97% of the stuff you talk is plain bolony so yeah good luck talking solo
I am also looking forward to this game. I fully expect Argentina to win by 2 or 3 goals tonight. Their group is pretty easy so I see them easily go through to the next round
I'm expecting 4-6 goals tonight, not to disrespect Bolivia but Argentina just is clearly better and in home, where only a few teams in history have beaten the Argentine's -

I'm dissapointed Aguero didn't get to make the starting 11 still - He's simply Messi, right footed, and a little less effective, when he entered the game with Albania, in minutes he was combinig like crazy with Messi, and I swear they had the defenders mad- Messi played aguero a 30 yard ball, Aguero controlled and left the keeper on the floor and scoerd, a few minutes later Aguero assisted Tevez for the definite 4-0 - Its so obvious for me how much the game changes positively for Argentina everytime Aguero enters it, but it sucks that the last managers haven't started him, maybe they like him in the last 20 and how he's so energetic, hyperactive, skilled, and quick when the defenders are already tired-

I don't know how you trust ESPN man, i've read some crazy facts coming from there, in the Gold Cup, Panama vs El Salvador, Panama had 24 shots vs 10 for el salvador, and El Salvador cleared the ball in the line 3 times, yet espn said that el salvador was better and superior and that Panama luckily tied in the last minute with a "ghost goal" -

Anyway, Bolivia isn't much of a test to be honest for the defense, because they aren't world class, but if it really where unreliable they would let in a few goals, so if Bolivia scores a few, then maybe you and ESPN are right, they are crappy, if they get a clean sheet and do well, maybe we can give them a little more credit and stop giving them adjectives that are a bit too harsh on them -

Anyway, i'm curious, on your standards, where do you place argentina, you always seem to be on the other side of these debates against me, and im wondering, do you consider them that bad of a team honestly, because for me they are top 5 of the world definetly -
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

willz17
Sophomore Member
Posts: 33
Joined: 18 Jun 2011, 14:57

Post by willz17 » 01 Jul 2011, 22:11

Wow i am suprised that Panchester07 and Klc arent good m8 :cry:

soccer11
Admin
Posts: 4870
Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:40
Location: Michigan, USA

Post by soccer11 » 02 Jul 2011, 00:33

Well I won't lay judgement on Argentina after this one game unless they do score something like 6 goals or if they lose. I think they'll just go out there, do what they have to do, and get an easy 3 goal win.

In terms of where I put Argentina, I think some people overrate them a bit. Like I said before, it's been almost 20 years since they've won a trophy and haven't made the semi-finals in the world cup since 1990. That being said, I'd still probably put them in my top 5, or maybe just outside of it. I don't necessarily like Argentina but I definitely respect them and I think I can rank them in an unbiased way. If they get their sh*t together, they definitely have the talent to be a really good team in this World Cup cycle and will be fun to watch.

I am kind of upset that Aguero isn't starting. I would've liked to have seen the Aguero, Messi, Tevez partnership.
Image

Post Reply