Europe vs South America

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panchester07
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Europe vs South America

Post by panchester07 » 21 Jun 2011, 03:44

So, i always have had this debate in my mind, of who has more football and produces better players, europe or south america? Europe has the best leagues, but the best players are often south americans, check around in european leagues and many of the best players are from this continent!! Europe has the academies, South America has the streets, slums, favela's, parks, etc- Europe has the money, south america has the pasion...... This debate sparked after i saw argentina give football lessons to albania (obviously no reference for european level) but i've never seen a national team play so well like today - with this new manager they are exploting all the talent they have, and he doesn't make stupid decisions like Maradona - he actually has tactical knowledge and has the team playing exellent posesion attacking football, albania didn't have the ball all game, and Argentina literally walked over them, not only with football, they did it beautifully-

I wanna get this ball rolling on this debate, because this forum needs debates like this when we talk about football and can discuss and analyze deep sh*t like this - Its not all about vapors and cone dirlls, as fans we can talk about anything that relates to football and this topic will be magnificent-

I'm gonna get the ball rolling after I traduce this post i saw in a spanish forum by a brazilian guy -

mira si va a estar linda la copa america: goleador de españa messi, goleador de inglaterra tevez, goleador de italia cavani, 2° goleador de portugal falcao, goleador de alemania barrios, mas todas las demas figuras.. dps los europeos se comparan con nosotros!.

wow this copa america is gonna be beautiful: top scorer in spain messi, top scorer in england tevez, top scorer in italy cavani, 2nd scorer in portugal falcao, top scorer in germany lucas barrios, plus all the other stars, i don't know how europeans compare themselves with us ....

Discuss gentlemen!
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scottS4
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Post by scottS4 » 21 Jun 2011, 04:00

South American players that won world player of the year during the last decade:

Messi (twice)
Ronaldinho (twice)
Kaka
Ronaldo de lima

For a total of 6

European players that won world player of the year during the last decade:

C. Ronaldo
Cannavaro
Zidane
Figo

for a total of 4

In that regard, South America comes out on top.


I personally think that South America has always produced better individual players, such as Messi, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Pele, Romario etc... That being said, you can't deny that European players like Best, Zidane and Cruyff are on a similar level.

Europe has undoubtedly done a better job of developing the sport through tactics, team work and strategy though. (Total football is one example.) Players like Beckenbauer and Xavi show that Europe wins in that regard.

Like you said, Europe has the academies. They've figured out the formula to sh*t out smart players and smart teams. So I guess that is another category that Europe wins.

I guess its a tie.

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 21 Jun 2011, 13:01

Joint top goalscorers in EPL were Berbatov and Tevez, European and South American

Cristiano Ronaldo won the pichichi this year with 41 goals in 38 games.

top goalscorer in Serie A was antionio de natale with 28 goals, two ahead of cavani.

top goalscorer in bundesliga was mario gomez, who was born and raised in Germany.

I'm not trying to belittle you, its just the person you quoted is a bit off.

This is a big if, but I think that is Messi stayed in argentina he would not be as good as he is today. That is the difference between south american in Europe in my opinion.

Yes some of football is raw talent, but not all of it. You don't get good without learning football and practising it. Most of the brilliant south American players spent most of their time and career in Europe where they learnt a lot. I may be wrong but I heard that Messi was nearly in Spain long enough to be given Spanish nationality and play for Spain, which he obviously declined because he is a true footballer and his heart is in Argentina.

Next I think population is big thing to consider. Europe has nearly twice the population of South America. That would obviously imply that South America is better, as they have had more world class players even though they have less populace.

However, you have to bare in mind that a massive part of Europe is under snow for most of the year. There is also more sports in Europe, like skiing and large scale motor-racing. People in Europe generally do more athletics and winter sports. South America however, to my knowledge, is that pretty much everyone plays football and loves football. So taking things into account, it might be more the other way. This would suggest that the reason Europe has less world class players over history than South America is that although there is a larger populace, less of the population plays football as much as in South America.

If I'm totally honest, I don't think it matters where you come from. If you love football and are good at it, it is because God gave you that personality and those talents and nothing will stop you, regardless of where you are in the world.

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Post by collin » 21 Jun 2011, 19:07

i think south american produces those very few great players, but i think europe all around produces more good players. For example, for every 10 good players in south american there are 20 in europe, and for every 10 amazing/great players in south america there is like maybe 5 in europe

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Post by soccer11 » 29 Jun 2011, 02:56

Last 5 World Cups.

2010:
Spain vs. Netherlands

2006:
Italy vs. France

2002:
Brazil vs. Germany

1998:
France vs. Brazil

1994:
Brazil vs. Italy

The only South American country who's done anything in the last 20 years is Brazil. The rest has been Europe. And not just one country dominating, it's been five different countries.
Europe also produces more complete teams. Argentina had arguably the most talented attacking team at last years world cup, but their defense was very average. Teams like Brazil and Argentina often turn attackers into defenders, which explains a lot. In Europe, they specialize more. They get defenders from a young age.
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Post by Rome_Leader » 29 Jun 2011, 14:58

Good stats s11. While he's right, I think we have to hand it to the South American nations that, while they've not been achieving the end result in getting to and winning the Final, there are a lot of countries making big moves past the group stages, which they almost always progress through. That's pretty good when your continent has only 13 countries and almost all of them are qualifying for World Cups and progressing as one of the top teams in their groups.

Really, every country but Venezuela, big and small, have qualified for a WC and shown some success, and right now, the wheels are clicking at the same time for Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay in particular, plus of course Brazil and Argentina. Should mean the Copa Americas will be a TIME at any rate. :p
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 30 Jun 2011, 18:26

I have to agree european teams have been doing better than south american ones in the world cup, but don't forget brazil won the confederations cup in 09, and spain got knocked out by the usa, who Brazil took care of in the final -

I think, its a matter of: Argentina for example, Messi, Masche, Milito in Barcelona, Milito, Zanetti, Cambiasso in Inter Milan, Di Maria, Higuian, Garay in real madrid they are in top european clubs and are key in these teams, often the stars, mvp's and playing important roles, but they are scattered all over europe, and once you put them together its a mess to get some chemistry, specially when Maradona is your coach, he never even got a degree as a manager, he just talked to the president of the Argentine Football Association, that like half of argentina, literally worship Maradona, even though he never took a single course of tactics -

I think i prefer south american players, they are very technical, and have a lot of heart, often stars in their teams, there is a quote that says ·if you want to entertain yourself, sign a brazilian, if you want to defend, sign an italian, but if you want to win sign an argentine", last year, argentina was the first exporter of footballers, with 1800 tranfers in the 2009-2010 season, brazil had 1440-

Since 1996, also, south america has the mayority of fifa players of the year - 3 for ronaldo, 2 for ronaldinho, 2 for messi, 1 for kaka, 1 for rivaldo, europe has: figo, cr7, zizou 3 times - thats 9 vs 5 -

up to last world cup, it was 10 for south america, and 10 for europe, its south america's opportunity with brazil 2014, the climate, pressure, fans, mood, make it a HUGE advantage for the locals, but south america has a big advantage, bear in mind south africa 2010 is the first world cup that a european team wins outside of europe in 80 years of world cup, they don't do so good out of home apparently, less in south america -

its also gonna be hard for europe to win, because if you see the qualification rounds for the world cup in south america, its like, go to bolivia, and argentina and brazil are not favorite, go to peru, ecuador, try to win in chile or uruguay, i mean, stadiums are packed, heated, hundreds of police officers with dogs, its a living hell, and the home team has a huge advantage, its the hardest qualification round there is for the world cup -

theres no doubt south america has the stars, the quality, those players that make a difference, that are techinical and have the balls, its just a delight to watch, maybe economics have favored europe more in the creation of academies and all that, but i would say they are almost on the same level, germany raped argentina in the world cup, but i would bet my house that that score would never repeat themself with a proper manager

zanetti - milito - burdiso - rojo


-------------masche -----------------

banega -----------------cambiasoo


lavezzi ------messi --------tevez


compare that to maradona's sh*t team in the world cup


otamendi -----demichelis ----someoneelse ----heinze----


--------------mascherano------------------------------


maxi rodriguez-------------di maria ------------


messi ----- higuian ---------tevez


the only thing that was tactically organized was the attack, otamendi is a central defender, demichelis sucks, di maria as a central midfielder? okay - so many tactical mistakes that undoubtly would have lead to a tactical lesson -

anyway, in 06, argentina tied germany in germany, and was playing better, in penalties, lehman had a paper that showed how each argentine took the pk's, which lead to him stopping most of them, totally fair, but to tie germany and play better than them IN their home is a big deal, and to loose that way sucks, you don't know what would have happened if that team would have advance-

all im saying, is that argentina have been rather unlucky, but look at their players, they can get far with the right manager and they have probably the best player in history, banega of course :lol:

where else do you see so many talents, cracks, beast, stars show up from? list of the top of my head:

aguero, cavani, messi, neymar, ganso, tevez, pato, robinho, suarez, alexis sanchez -

yeah, in 4 seconds i came up with that, and its week in, week out, new stars, new rising players, from uruguay, chile, argentina, brazil, rising, getting transfered to europe and helping their team win championships, and take important roles in their teams - they have BETTER players than europe in my honest opinion, just its harder to put them together on the same team due to them being all scattered over the world, and i think europe is also a little more advanced in the tactic's and coaches department - probably a little more corruption by the federations in south america, less resources, and more favoritism by the coaches, some huge players are sometimes forgotten out of the list for no damn reason, i.e. marcelo, and so many more-
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eddy192837
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Post by eddy192837 » 30 Jun 2011, 21:33

Each of these countries are different with different styles of play so you cant reqlly compare..

Players fron Spain - touch
Players from Argentina - close control
Players from Italy - defensive
Players from Germany - they play HARD with balls
Players from Brazil - creativity
Players from Portugal - flair
Players from England - counter attack
Players from USA - losing haha well yo get the point.. You cant really compare one from the other

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Post by nick117 » 30 Jun 2011, 22:05

^theres nothing remotely right about that post.

desire10
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Post by desire10 » 30 Jun 2011, 23:35

nick117 wrote:^theres nothing remotely right about that post.
agreed.

eddy your just stereotyping there.
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Post by soccer11 » 01 Jul 2011, 01:29

Argentina hasn't won a major tournament since 1993. For me, it's hard to say South America is the best when their second best team hasn't been able to win a tournament in almost 20 years.
Argentina has great offensive players, but almost all of their defenders are terrible. Demichelis was a starter and not only because of bad coaching; it's the best they had. You're not going to win anything in todays game if you don't have at least a reliable defense.
South America can have all the individual attacking stars they want; I prefer a complete team.
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Post by collin » 01 Jul 2011, 02:02

eddy who was it that beat australia before the world cup? oh wait i believe it was USA

panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 01 Jul 2011, 02:08

Actually, Samuel had just won the ucl with inter milan, they're was burdisso, garay and a few others around, which aren't the creme of the crop, but i wouldn't say germany's to say a name's defense was much better either - badstuber? mertesacker? i don't think they are "top notch" or much more outstanding, reliable, agressive, decent in the professional world- if im not mistaking puyol about 1 feet shorter than them in their own box won a header and knocked them out of the world cup-

They had Zanetti - Samuel -- burdisso/milito - heinze, cambiasso and mascherano that are beast defensive midfielders to say the least top of the world players, thats not "italy" but its solid enough- instead maradona improvised with otamendi, a central defender and put him as a right back, and a few other weirdo's, and made a mess -

Theres no doubt maradona made tactical mistakes, and he never stepped into a manager academy ever, you can't judge argentina for last world cup for they had a clown in charge, qualifying in the last minute vs PERU, and almost where out of the world cup -

again, i admit argentina's defense is not as good as other top world ones, but they are much more solid than you make them seem, plus this argument isn't Argentina vs europe, its south america vs europe, and other teams like uruguay, paraguay, brazil have world class defenses- argentina's strength at the moment isn't defenders, but they have some defensive stars, like zanetti, masche, samuel, and cambiasso, otamendi is actually pretty great as a central defender where he plays in porto and won the uefa cup, etc - the rest play in well known world class clubs around europe and can keep their composure, its not like the defense is a freaking whole like USA's was vs Mexico to give you a recent example (first one that came to mind)-

the attack is the best in the world by far, and thats why you're saying the defense is shyte, but your mistaken, the defense is not as good as the attack which doens't make it shyte, it just makes it less good, but it can definetly compete and it has a few big names like i've mentioned before, some sound better than "mertesacker or badstuber" who you barely here of around the world and aren't at all better than the ones in argie -
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Post by desire10 » 01 Jul 2011, 02:40

if im not mistaking puyol about 1 feet shorter than them in their own box won a header and knocked them out of the world cup-
It was a free header, no one else challenged for the ball (within Puyols position).
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 01 Jul 2011, 05:21

desire10 wrote:
if im not mistaking puyol about 1 feet shorter than them in their own box won a header and knocked them out of the world cup-
It was a free header, no one else challenged for the ball (within Puyols position).
Means bad marking none the less , its actually worse that Puyol entered that area so unmarked -

My point, is that simply its premature and childish to call argentina's defense unreliable- thats right, read it, argentina's defense is unreliable, soccer11 you like it, admit it, desire it or not argentina is gonna top 5 football nations always, there with germany, england, brazil, italy, and you fill in the blank the 5th team, they are just humongous and world class and candidates always - there defense might not be all world class like puyol, pique, sergio ramos and albiol at the moment, but one is the captain for inter milan, the two in the middle are decent second stringers in HUGE clubs, and the left back aswell - they aren't huge names, i'll give you that, but they aren't gonna shank it and let in 5 goals..Javier Zanetti, Nicolás Burdisso, Gabriel Milito, Marcos Rojo - Millito had to play for barcelona in big matches, burdisso is roma's main man in the back, and marcos rojo is a local sensation - add to that two defensive midfielder GENIUSES like mascherano and cambiasso and you'll find that its very hard to score on this side i want to know how many matches you've seen those defenders play and show me specific moments when they where "unreliable" or else your argument has not much of foundation, you can't say that every year without watching them play, and please answer my question:

are badstuber and mertesacker any better? because i have a lot of doubts
-

usa's defense isn't "unreliable" mexico's defense isn't unreliable, uruguay's defense isn't unreliable, ivory coast defense isn't unreliable, Argentina has better defenders club wise and role-wise than all these countries to mention a few, its just the fact that the attack is so outstanding and by far the best in the world that it belittles the defence which is never gonna be so good but is definetly better than 90% of teams, probably italy, portugal, brazil, england, spain, and 2 or 3 other countries have better defense than argentina player for player - they don't need to play for real madrid, barcelona, and chelsea to be reliable
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