Quarter Finals (WC 2010)

Forum about the biggest sporting event in the world
NewBornProdigy
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Post by NewBornProdigy » 04 Jul 2010, 12:23

Man 4-0 against any team at international level is never 'lucky', 3 4-0's is never over-rated

The Germans certainly haven't played the hardest teams, but you can only beat whats put out infront of you... And they destroyed them

For the sake of Football, I hope Spain win, but the two unwritten rules of being a World Cup watcher, dictates my choice

...A 5-4 win is far better than a 2-0 win

...Never, Ever, Rule out the Germans. Ever
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh » 04 Jul 2010, 15:50

This certainly will be an interesting match, it's one of the few in this world cup that I don't have a clear idea of who is going to win it. I want spain to win because I've predicted that earlier in our winner-gets-ice-cream pool at work but I can also see the germans winning it if they play as well as they did today and against england.

Spain will undoubtably look to control the game by keeping posession but if their passing is as bad as it was yesterday then the germans will be able to do the same thing and launch some pretty devastating counterattacks (assuming that their passing is as good as it was against england).

Certainly the Germans have looked more dangerous in attack but they haven't come up against a defense which is in good form, that being said puyol is one slow mother fu**er and the germans are a very fast team, we saw how badly he handled valdez in the paraguy game imagine him against mueller or oezil.

If spain get their sh*t together they will win, if germany keeps their sh*t together then they will still be the favourites to win.

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Post by Hugh » 04 Jul 2010, 16:02

panchester07 wrote:50% of the teams in the quarter finals are south american and none is gonna make the final? Gimme a break, it seems like some people watch the world cup with the tv off.. What I also don't get is why they don't support the people that live football in the maximum intensity, what is more beautiful than that? they also constantly talk sh*t and look for flaws in southern american teams just because, just because they say so, I feel like puking. The southern american teams play well but it was lucky, and they'll loose vs a better team, but european teams win by a minimal different and "are gonna win the final" ..

...

50% of the teams are south americans and they get 4.5 spots, 4 of them are still there in the last 8. On the other hand just to make a comparison, Europe gets 16 spots and 3 are there. That says a lot - Again, my point is not to say who is better, just to represent a continent that deserves credit and are getting to much sh*t and criticism lately, and European teams are just perfect,..
It's cruel of me to do this but... lol!

soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 04 Jul 2010, 16:15

Hugh wrote: Certainly the Germans have looked more dangerous in attack but they haven't come up against a defense which is in good form, that being said puyol is one slow mother fu**er and the germans are a very fast team, we saw how badly he handled valdez in the paraguy game imagine him against mueller or oezil.
unfortunately Müller won't be playing because the ref gave him that stupid yellow card for a hand ball but even so, Podolski will give him plenty of trouble.
I'd imagine Trochowski will start instead. He's just as good of a winger though not as much of a scoring threat as Müller is. There's not that much of a drop off they just need someone else to score, which they have in abundance.
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2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 » 04 Jul 2010, 18:56

Germany have the advantage in that they know if they shut Villa down Spains scoring threat decreases significantly. Germany on the other hand have had very spread out scoring and every player looks a threat in the final third.

panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 04 Jul 2010, 19:32

just like to point out that oezil was completely shut down for long periods of the game, and even a complete half yesterday. props to germany for being versatile, but just making a statement, he didn't do much yesterday and with common sense you could think that he wouldn't do anything on the semi's, baring in mind that spain has better defenders than argentina, or atleast they have a coach that plays the best, and that doesn't leave the better defenders in thebench, or doesn't even call them....

Maradona to blame 150% for this loss.
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Pichichi
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Post by Pichichi » 04 Jul 2010, 19:39

panchester07 wrote:just like to point out that oezil was completely shut down for long periods of the game, and even a complete half yesterday. props to germany for being versatile, but just making a statement, he didn't do much yesterday and with common sense you could think that he wouldn't do anything on the semi's, baring in mind that spain has better defenders than argentina, or atleast they have a coach that plays the best, and that doesn't leave the better defenders in thebench, or doesn't even call them....

Maradona to blame 150% for this loss.
little hard for Özil to shine when Schweinsteiger stole the show

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Post by soccer11 » 04 Jul 2010, 19:46

panchester07 wrote:just like to point out that oezil was completely shut down for long periods of the game, and even a complete half yesterday. props to germany for being versatile, but just making a statement, he didn't do much yesterday and with common sense you could think that he wouldn't do anything on the semi's, baring in mind that spain has better defenders than argentina, or atleast they have a coach that plays the best, and that doesn't leave the better defenders in thebench, or doesn't even call them....

Maradona to blame 150% for this loss.
or Germany was really good. Either or.

Özil didn't need to be good. Germany didn't go down the middle yesterday because they wanted to go down the left wing mostly and cross it into the middle because they knew that the center of Argentina's defense was their weakness. Had they been a more narrow team and tried to play through Özil, they would've ran into Mascherano. That was just good planning from Germany. While he wasn't as pivotal yesterday, Özil still kept the ball moving really well all game.
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 04 Jul 2010, 20:00

Yo any team that plays with the lineup Argentina plays with is gonna get fu**ed that way..

Many are saying that even the team they played vs Nigeria in the first match would have been better than the formation yesterday.. The nigeria team was: Keeper. Jonas, demichelis, samuel, heinze ; mascherano, veron, di maria, Lio, Tevez, Higuian....... You have a game creator, and you have a more solid back

In Modern times Argentina and Germany have always gone hand in hand, 2-2 last world cup in Germany and it took penalties to win 4 them cause Lehmann had a paper showing how each player was gonna kick, and technically (player for player) argneitna is stronger right now.

-For leaving out so many quality players and taking so many not so great one's
- For thinking that by motivating his players and inspiring them he could compensate for lack of tactical organization.
- For thinking that his individual talents would win him the whole thing, and that could have been so just that he lined them up so oddly..
- This one's harsh, but if you know you're not a DT, and you know that the Argentinian's admire you to much to remove you, then you are being selfish as fu**. You ain't a DT, that showed in South America if you didn't know it already. Just leavee when you had a chance, man.
-Again, playing with no organizer.. Mascherano cleans the opposing attacks, and maxi and di maria are wingers, who will assist the strikers?
- He depended too much on Messi, he though Messi was gonna win him the whole thing. He could have played better if you gave him the right conditions, but the whole offense is gonna flop if you can't get a man to set them up properly.
- Repeating the same lineup than vs Mexico dude, did you not see that the score was 3-1 but it was 3 individal brilliances, 3 moments that the best players in the world got inspired and scored, and then Mexico controlled the mayority of the game? That lineup was sh*t, is sh*t, and will be sh*t, a select group of players wont change that, you need balance in a team.

That and other things, I think he truely thought we could get the job done, but was lacking tactically and strategilly, and well, move on I guess. Copa america 2011 will be in argnetina, he still has contract till then, but he's giving all the signals he'll be leaving. I think the best is a replacement for him soon, someone that can make probably the best national team player for player (along with spain/england), play to their potential, and have a right process, if you do a decent tournament in 2011, a good qualification rounds you will be candidate to win the whole thing if you're argentina.. Maradona came in 2009, ugly, fat, and with no clue about football. You need 4 years, with a good DT, that can choose the right men.
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Pichichi
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Post by Pichichi » 04 Jul 2010, 20:07


soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 04 Jul 2010, 20:11

Just last week you were saying forget about who Maradona didn't pick for the squad. I guess you've come around on that view.

And even so, this is a different Germany than before; faster and much more creative than before (as in even 3 months ago). I said before the tournament that with Ballack being injured it would make Germany a better team and that's what it did. Germany are a better "team" than Argentina ever could have been. They don't have a superstar like Messi, which is better for Germany because Germany doesn't have that player that is expected to be the center of everything but rather a cohesive unit of 10 who work together in unison.
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 04 Jul 2010, 20:20

Forget what i was saying, i'm supporting a team, and now that its out I can see things how they are. I did reckon he wasn't a super coach, but I tried to believe positive things about him for the month, and he did get a lot of assistance from his staff.. what kind of a supporter would I be, if I was constantly reminding myself how bad he is was, also, the time to bitch about his mistakes where long over last week, the squad (23) came out 1 month before the tournament, a period I constantly complained and even called him a lunatic. Done bitching, moving on from that phase, I tried to root for what I had,.


And the fact that they have "a superstar" is Maradona's fault. He tried to make him into a superstar, he constatntly said "No one on this tournament has a player as 30% as good as Messi", he also said that "im sorry, but you don't have Messi on your team".. he played him the 450 minutes, he was way to Messi - dependant, more than barca(if they even are) and more than you can be on a player. If Messi was 1 more of the team, then he would have shone much much more, if the team had more options, more attacking routes, instead of pass it to Messi and have him do magic with the ball then the team would have been a way better one. In Barcelona, 1/5th of the balls go to Messi, in argentina 5/6 balls went to Messi, even when he was exhausted, even when he was way to covered, and thats Diego's fault . He gave those orders, and further more he lined up the team that way. The ball rarely could get to Tevez or Higuian if it didn't get to Messi first, and the attack lost surprise factor and speed that way. Who could have been better (arg or germ) is debatable, and impossible to determine, but just saying that he played with no organizer, and that he left out 2 champions of europe, are enough to summarize his tactical capabilites, which in Modern football is a lot... with a more capable coach better things could have gotten done. Maradona is helpless tactically, and it showed vs Mexico, and vs Germany. and when he picked 103 different players.

Germany won yesterday obviously and props to them, but many know that most of the blame goes to Maradona, and his formations, which are getting torn apart by a 17 yearold on a forum. and by many, many people world wide. no blame, he was an overtalented left footed genius that all he did was run with the ball and beat players, and from 94 - 2006 he was busy getting high, in an effort to restructure his life he turned to coaching, which simply requieres MUCH more preparation than he can have in the following 8 years fact.
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2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 » 04 Jul 2010, 21:14

I'm sorry Panchester but a 1 or 2 goal win can be blamed on the coach, anything above that goes to the players.

I've noticed you tend to support teams with a blind eye to their problems then when they fail pull a full 180 and start thrashing the reason you feel they failed. Maybe if you listened to people, took into account the teams flaws and had a realistic view to start with you wouldn't get so worked up when failure happens.

Ignoring flaws in a team doesn't make you a better supporter at all. Look at Ratherton who supports his teams to a higher degree than anyone else on the forum. Although he has confidence and faith in his teams he realizes their flaws and when they fail because of those flaws puts his focus on how to fix that, not turn on his teams.

Just some food for thought since this isn't the first time you've supported a team as blindly as Argentina and reacted as harshly when they failed. It's truely just a game, nothing to get as worked up as yourself over.












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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 05 Jul 2010, 00:00

2brown347 wrote:I'm sorry Panchester but a 1 or 2 goal win can be blamed on the coach, anything above that goes to the players.

I've noticed you tend to support teams with a blind eye to their problems then when they fail pull a full 180 and start thrashing the reason you feel they failed. Maybe if you listened to people, took into account the teams flaws and had a realistic view to start with you wouldn't get so worked up when failure happens.

Ignoring flaws in a team doesn't make you a better supporter at all. Look at Ratherton who supports his teams to a higher degree than anyone else on the forum. Although he has confidence and faith in his teams he realizes their flaws and when they fail because of those flaws puts his focus on how to fix that, not turn on his teams.

Just some food for thought since this isn't the first time you've supported a team as blindly as Argentina and reacted as harshly when they failed. It's truely just a game, nothing to get as worked up as yourself over.
Mistake brown, big mistake a 1-2 goal difference goes to the players, a 4-0 difference clearly maeans the coach organized the team the wrong way, 2-1 : Maybe the striker could have finished better, maybe they had to play the man that was alone, but 4-0 specially at this level, clearly means tactical helplessness and disorganization..

When have i overreacted ? Besides brazil when have I overreacted? What's your point I admited the team had more flaws than I'd seen? Why are you bringing that up now? Do you just want to feel good about yourself, feed your ego? If its just game i'd appreciate you talk about the game, not about me, since honestly the only time i've become upset is the day that brazil lost, and the rest i've admited i was wrong like a man.

Besides the 1st point you made, which is wrong by the way, I don't get what you mean, or try to say, and if yourr talking about the defense, then we talked about that yesterday, I admited it flaws, and bringing it up again really makes it sound like you need a dose of self-esteem. Last, Demicheliis which you said would make mistakes and how he was shaky didn't seem shakey at all, in fact he was the most solid. If you want me to, ill bring that up like your doing right now.

Germany won the game well, and played brilliantly, but Argentina was doomed to fail lined up this way and with the strategies Maradona imposed, they weren't so great vs Mexico, and it took individual inspirations to get those 3 goals in. Maradona can't expect to win the world cup just through individualites, and specially if you don't give these individualities the right line up, starting with a good central midfielder with vision that acts as an organizer. otamendi sucked as well.

The whole Media is talking about Maradona leaving, how a 2-1 is acceptable, but a 4-0 is just mock, and how he needs to leave in spite of having a contract till 2011. He made to many mistakes and knows nothing tactically, he depended on Messi way to much and put to much presusre on him. Argentina had the players, not the tactics. Maybe with Zannetti, Cambiasso, Riquelme, Veron, Samuel (on the pitch) they still couldn't have beaten germany, but 4-0 is never an acceptable result for Argentina, be it Germany, Brazil or Spain. 4-0 is not the difference between the two countries footbalistically, it will always be a close battle, and when its not, you know somethings wrong, like Maradona this time. The difference between the two is never this abysmal, and Mexico uncovered many weaknesses in Argentina, you could see this coming. The weaknesses that they uncovere though, weren't defensive, they where from the midfield and ahead to be 100% frank with you.

Just saying, one's been champion of the world 2 times, exports players to the best league, where they shine and win individual recognitions and trophies, and help their team conquer championships. The other one has been champion of the world 3 times, and is always big, all their players play in their league and thats a huge plus. At the end of the day theres not that much difference between the two. You just can see Argentina wasnt a team that had possesion flow, that had decent tactics or strategies.

Germany was more than good, but Argentina was crappy and disorganized since the day they started playing without Veron, and played Maxi. On the other hand Spain is a team with tactics, organization, possesion flow, and a FEW players that play as organized. If Germany rapes Spain which I highly doubt, then you where right and its "the player", but if not, then all along the credit for the loss goes to Maradona and his awful tactics.
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh » 05 Jul 2010, 12:41

2brown347 wrote:I'm sorry Panchester but a 1 or 2 goal win can be blamed on the coach, anything above that goes to the players.
Actually I'm with Panchester on this one.

Argentina is a squad with a huge number of superstars on the team who are all in form and all play well together, for them to fail this badly against Germany is not their fault it is the fault of their coach.

Obviously a lot of blame can be laid at the feet of the defense and rightly so, but to say that they lost this game because of the players is avoiding the issue that maradonna refused to correct what he knew to be a gigantic weakness in his side (the back 4) and chose only to focus on praising messi as his successor.

He constructed the entire team around one player and completely ignored all aspects of the game other than offence. The Germans were able to pour around the sides of his narrow defense and put dangerous balls into the center because they knew that was exactly the right way to beat them.

Again, when you've got the players that argentina has then it takes a real idiot to mess it up, which is exactly what maradonna did because he is, was, and always shall be an idiot who is still trying to be the superstar that he used to be.

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