Things we've found out from the group stages.

Forum about the biggest sporting event in the world
Rome_Leader
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klc is right. Me, I hate diving, but when it results in my team winning, although I might frown on it and still not condone it, I do, deep within me, feel happy that they managed to win. It's so intertwined with the modern game that everyone does it to some degree. In fact, it would be a liar and a fool who said he has never dived once his entire career, and had never even considered it. Even the best and most gentlemanly players will do what it takes to win.

That being said, I draw a clear line at 'gamesmanship diving' (Such as embellishing a clear foul a little more than necessary to get a freekick) and what I call 'bitch diving', which is either a stonewall dive that's obvious to the official, or is just you looking to get an opposing player in trouble.

NewBornProdigy
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That's your opinion. To me, going down easy is not cheating and I'm happy for my team to do it to win
Its up to the referee to decide if you were fouled or not, it is not your choice

Football players don't respect ref's decisions, they act in anarchy, conning them and complaining to them

Compare it to rugby

None of them cheat, all of them have total respect for the ref... They get along far better than footballers do

This is a whole seperate argument, because ref's in soccer are extremely disadvantaged and often have a very hard job... Cheating is not making it easier

Going down easy... Is cheating

Furthermore what happens to the respect for the other team/player
Have you ever been on the reciving end of a diver?
I know I have... It sucks, I got a yellow card once for the most blatent dive I've ever witnessed

Not a fair, enjoyable feeling
When you look at it that way, I think it is been selfish do your country to not go down easy, because if you don't go down easy, your putting your own interests, your pride, in front of every single person in your nation.
Your representing your country

When you say Portugal or Argentina in England everyone turns around and says 'fu**ing winking, handballing, cheating fu**s...'

Ronaldo's and Maradona's reputations were destroyed... But so were their countries

You underestimate the human's capacity to stereotype

Its your personal responsibility when representing your country, infact your supposed to play with a heighted sense of pride

By cheating you are staining every single person in your nation
Look at it this way, would you rather be selfish and not go down easy and get your team a penalty to win the world cup, and then have your team lose the world cup, all for the sake of your own personal pride.

Or would you rather tarnish yourself forever and go down easy, and in the process get a penalty that won your nation the world cup, and have your entire nation eternal glory, all for the trade off of your personal honesty.
I am my country, I do not want to represent my country when I act dishonestly... So I wouldn't act dishonest (although I doubt I'll ever reach that scenario :D )

I'm not putting myself infront of my country

Hoenstly, this is not personal dig, but your attitude is very much a large problem in football (or more the fact that the system allows that attitude to prosper)

klc123
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No, Argentina are branded as cheats because Maradona's hand of God.

Portugal are branded as actual divers because they go down to the floor when they have not been fouled, looking for free kicks, as do the Italians.

C Ronaldo goes down easy when he has been fouled, but he also goes down when he hasn't been touched sometimes, that's why he is branded as a diver.

Messi on the other hand goes down easy when he has been fouled, and suggesting otherwise would be moronic, but he never goes down when he has not been fouled, that's the key difference, and hence forth he is not branded as a diver.

I can think of millions of examples like this. Spain and Brazil both have many players who go down easy and take the free kick, and I wouldn't say either or their nations have been tarnished in the fashion you are making out.

Yes it is the refs decision to see if it is a foul or not, but sometimes he needs a helping hand and going down can be the answer for that, especially when the rules of advantage are so cloudy.

The referees cannot see everything. Look at it this way, would you say that Henry didn't cheat against Ireland just because the officials did not see him hand ball it? I did not think so.

And btw, Rugby is a sport where there is a video referee, you cannot cheat the ref because he has access to evidence on the spot and can punish you. In rugby however there are more sickening problems, such as the lack of respect for other players, such as high tackles which can put someone in a wheel chair or eye gouging which can leave someone blind.

bsc
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Rome_Leader wrote:klc is right. Me, I hate diving, but when it results in my team winning, although I might frown on it and still not condone it, I do, deep within me, feel happy that they managed to win.
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I don't feel happy when my team wins by cheating, in real life, or watching on tv. Guess it's just a difference of interpretation, but when Eboue dives it drives me crazy!

I'm pretty much going to have to agree with NBP on this one.
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klc123
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^ :lol:

NewBornProdigy
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No, Argentina are branded as cheats because Maradona's hand of God.
When you say Portugal or Argentina in England everyone turns around and says 'fu**ing winking, handballing, cheating fu**s...'
One second, their reputation changes forever
Portugal are branded as actual divers because they go down to the floor when they have not been fouled, looking for free kicks, as do the Italians.
Proving my point
C Ronaldo goes down easy when he has been fouled, but he also goes down when he hasn't been touched sometimes, that's why he is branded as a diver.

Messi on the other hand goes down easy when he has been fouled, and suggesting otherwise would be moronic, but he never goes down when he has not been fouled, that's the key difference, and hence forth he is not branded as a diver.
Pit Messi or Ronaldo against a single defender in the penalty area in the World Cup Final, he will not need to cheat

If they do, they will be remembered as 'the cheater' not 'the guy who won them the penalty'

I don't agree with Messi going down easy when fouled, but it is a flaw in the game which is exploited by some (Ronaldo, going down when not fouled) and used by others (Messi)

If the refereeing system could be sorted it would be possible to eradicate one or both forms
I can think of millions of examples like this. Spain and Brazil both have many players who go down easy and take the free kick, and I wouldn't say either or their nations have been tarnished in the fashion you are making out.
Nor have either been presented with the World Cup Wining Opportunity your describing, Your not proving or dis-proving anything significant saying famous players dive

We know they dive, stopping them diving is the issue, the problem is far to many embrace it as a tool more than a flaw

Its an attitude issue and a systematic issue
Yes it is the refs decision to see if it is a foul or not, but sometimes he needs a helping hand and going down can be the answer for that, especially when the rules of advantage are so cloudy.
Again systematic refereeing issue, Its your responsibility to play, your interpretation on fouls is not relevant...

Just like every once and a while the ref doesn't slightly clip the ball so your pass reaches its target...

Important phrase that needs to be implimented: The referee is not always right, but he's always the referee

If you focus on playing, you will probably get the chances that cheating would bring you anyway, so let the ref do his job and you do yours
The referees cannot see everything. Look at it this way, would you say that Henry didn't cheat against Ireland just because the officials did not see him hand ball it? I did not think so.
-Henry cheated
-The ref could not see, but had no opportunity to reveiw the situation
-He had a split second to decide
-Hence he had to call it as he saw it
-Hence it was a systematic failure

What happens if Henry didn't cheat

-Henry misses the ball
-The ref calls a goalkick
And btw, Rugby is a sport where there is a video referee, you cannot cheat the ref because he has access to evidence on the spot and can punish you
Precisely, meaning soccer should be made the same

Just cause you can doesn't will you to do it!
In rugby however there are more sickening problems, such as the lack of respect for other players, such as high tackles which can put someone in a wheel chair or eye gouging which can leave someone blind
Gotta be honest, never once have I seen either of those happen/result in an injury) and I watch a fair bit of rugby (maybe a few high tackles that left people shook)

But far more people break legs in rucks and mauls when they collapse

2brown347
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Agree with NBP.

and a big difference between cr7 going down easy with contact and Messi going down easy with contact is that Messi will stay on his feet more often than not since more often than not he can still get the ball and continue. cr7 on the other hand could have a 1 on 1 in front of goal, get touched and hit the ground, and if he'd simply stayed up he could have scored. I don't like it when even Messi goes down but when you get fouled to the point you lose the ball (not because they defender gets the ball away but touches you) and go down I have more sympathy than what cr7 (and others) do.

I personally have gotten hearful from coaches and teammates for not going down when I'm obviously fouled but unless the foul knocks me down I'd rather not be a bitch.

soccer11
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The problem is people like c.ronaldo don't get punished when it's a clear dive. I'd like to see refs pull out the card more often when it's a dive instead of motioning the player to get up. If it's not a foul and the player's down, don't tell them to get up; give them a card. Give them one chance in the game (warn them if you must) and on the second time, give a card. Refs shouldn't be afraid to give the stars cards, and possibly kick them out of the game if they dive. If the refs actually started punishing the divers, I think diving would stop.
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Hugh
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I just wanted to point out this little gem of a statement that no one picked up on.
klc123 wrote:Winning it is more important than things like honesty and pride to most people

Part of being english is having and staying true to our principles. This is an essential part of everyone who is british and it's why we're so good at things like queueing, sportsmanship and casual racism.

An example of a principle that most englishmen and women would share is that they would never cheat someone (boardgames are an exception obviously). It's a self reinforcing cycle whereby you are so full of pride that you won't 'lower' yourself to cheating because that would ruin your opinion of yourself and everytime you avoid cheating you become more proud of yourself for sticking to your principles.

On the flipside, having principles allows us to see ourselves as 'better' than people who don't have principles because it obviously means that we are more moral and caring people and we have a better sense of what is right and what is wrong. This fuels the staggering amount of casual racism among the british.

That is why we hate diving, it's also why we are the most frustrated nation of fans in the world.

From the rest of the world's perspective: England's fans are funny because they care so much but their team never does well anymore and they get very angry when they lose

From our perspective: England is the only nation that doesn't dive anymore, that still plays soccer like it should be played but we lose every year to countries who are inhabited by people who are inherently worse people than us (because of their lack of principles). And that is truly maddening.


Anyway that's a little bit of insight into the english mind.


That's also why every englishman can say that they would never dive and be absolutely 100% sure that they are telling the truth.

Magicfeet
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English players dive; I've seen Gerrard con the ref plenty of times.

To say "we get angry cos we don't cheat and everyone else does and they win but we got principles and it's not fair but at least we're honest!" is utter rubbish.

Hugh
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Gerrard, Ashley and Glen Johnson are the notable exceptions to that rule.

NewBornProdigy
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soccer11 wrote:The problem is people like c.ronaldo don't get punished when it's a clear dive. I'd like to see refs pull out the card more often when it's a dive instead of motioning the player to get up. If it's not a foul and the player's down, don't tell them to get up; give them a card. Give them one chance in the game (warn them if you must) and on the second time, give a card. Refs shouldn't be afraid to give the stars cards, and possibly kick them out of the game if they dive. If the refs actually started punishing the divers, I think diving would stop.
Again, its too hard to implement that kinda of punishment with the current refereeing system

Football needs an authority reform

Seriously its a huge problem, compare Rugby Ref's respect/role to a Football Ref's

Yet compare their resources and power, and you find out why

bsc
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They just need to implement a similar system they have to violent conduct. Where cheating can be reviewed and punished by suspensions and fines after the game.

It would stop diving and not slow down the game. It seems pretty simple to me.
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klc123
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I completely agree with you Hugh, and I two agree that pride and not cheating are more important than winning.

However by honesty I meant in terms of going down when you're fouled, when you wouldn't actually have gone done under normal circumstances.

It depends on what your stance is on diving and going down easy. For me, diving is cheating, going down easy is not.

And yeah, Gerrard does dive, but he doesn't count, he's from Liverpool, where the word morale doesn't exist.

Just my opinion on the whole England versus the rest of the world however, to me is seems like (from what I have heard) that only the British and the US moan about divers, and we're considered to be, on the whole, the only two nations that still do not dive. However, the rest of the world pretty much all dive, and so to them, everyone is on a level playing feel.

For example, Portuguese fans do not wish to lynch an Italian diver because he is a diver, because they know that they themselves do it all the time.

I also thing the rest of the world does not care what Britain and the US thinks of them because in all honest, Britain and US are the two most hated nations in the world and so really, the rest of the world doesn't give a sh*t on whether we look down on them for diving.

Met
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Fifa are pussies. They continually refuse to get with the times. How long has Hawk eye been in tennis? How long has video ref been in rugby? They have gone back to punish players when refs missed it, using what? the very video evidence they refuse to allow during a game. And yet when refs have got it wrong, they do not go back and correct it. Even with pressure from media.

I'm afraid guys, we will have to accept that diving goes on in our beloved game and hope that one day, a complete revamp will occur one day and make the divers go away.

On the other hand, I've learned that teams are going to prefer penalties against teams with superior attacking power then trying to beat them in during the game, apart from Argentina, who can't defend properly.

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