Transfer deadline day, 31st January 2011

English football section, also known as Ratherton's hole
TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 31 Jan 2011, 23:02

panchester07 wrote:
LiveTheDream wrote:Paul Konchesky has signed a loan deal with Forest :)

Can't believe Carroll has been bought for 35m. He's not worth that, no way.
Holy sh*t I know, the lad is clumsy as hell, he can score goals, but 35 million pounds? For Crying out loud... Might as well gotten Alan Shearer :lol:

Let me upload a few videos on youtube of panchester's greatest goals, send it to them, and maybe they can give a good 30 million for me.. Jesus H. Christ..

I thought they where having economic problems..
To put this all in perspective.

Torres = 50M

Arsenal's starting XI(no Arshavin) = 44M

Carroll = 35M
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ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 31 Jan 2011, 23:27

TommyGun wrote:
panchester07 wrote:
LiveTheDream wrote:Paul Konchesky has signed a loan deal with Forest :)

Can't believe Carroll has been bought for 35m. He's not worth that, no way.
Holy sh*t I know, the lad is clumsy as hell, he can score goals, but 35 million pounds? For Crying out loud... Might as well gotten Alan Shearer :lol:

Let me upload a few videos on youtube of panchester's greatest goals, send it to them, and maybe they can give a good 30 million for me.. Jesus H. Christ..

I thought they where having economic problems..
To put this all in perspective.

Torres = 50M

Arsenal's starting XI(no Arshavin) = 44M

Carroll = 35M
Unfortunately, success isn't measure by balancing the books. If Wenger actually spent a small amount of money on a couple of players, Arsenal would walk the league. Instead he tries to pretend that his goal keepers are good enough and Bendtner is a forward and as a result they keep falling short.

That argument about how much the teams cost is a convenient fallback for years of failure. By that benchmark, Blackpool are more successful than Arsenal.
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KoNJa04
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Post by KoNJa04 » 31 Jan 2011, 23:38

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If you desire that life then pursuit it.. end of story.. no buts, no hypothetical situations, no what ifs.. you want something go get it ..
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TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 01 Feb 2011, 01:08

ratherton wrote: Unfortunately, success isn't measure by balancing the books. If Wenger actually spent a small amount of money on a couple of players, Arsenal would walk the league. Instead he tries to pretend that his goal keepers are good enough and Bendtner is a forward and as a result they keep falling short.

That argument about how much the teams cost is a convenient fallback for years of failure. By that benchmark, Blackpool are more successful than Arsenal.
I beg to differ....along with the Financial Fair Play rules due to hit at the beginning of 2012. Wenger won't have to adjust, because that's been his policy from the start. These clubs that haven't spend wisely and didn't invest in their youth players will suffer.

I'm glad we don't depend on going out to drown players in money. It usually just unsettles the current squad...and who wants to do that when you're sitting 2nd? Sure, I would have loved to get a CB but on loan would have been a tough ask for a quality player. Verms is due back and I don't think we need a crowded bench of CB's waiting their turn. Fab's save percentage is 4th in the league....so it's good enough for me.

Oh....now you are joking. I was referring to today's transaction but I'll go there, too. Blackpool doesn't have the revenue stream that Arsenal doesn't, of course. What about Blackpool makes them a success? Their league position? Liverpool was in the relegation zone 2 months back and now they are 7th....so things quickly change. Blackpool doesn't have the facilities or youth program that Arsenal possess, which will continue their success by cultivating talent. When Blackpool are in the EPL for 10 years straight, then you MAY have a case(still small at that)....but you don't now.

Don't get me wrong, I love Holloway as a manager and I think he has a fantastic view of the game, on and off the field.
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LiveTheDream
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Post by LiveTheDream » 01 Feb 2011, 02:56

panchester07 wrote:
LiveTheDream wrote:Paul Konchesky has signed a loan deal with Forest :)

Can't believe Carroll has been bought for 35m. He's not worth that, no way.
Holy sh*t I know, the lad is clumsy as hell, he can score goals, but 35 million pounds? For Crying out loud... Might as well gotten Alan Shearer :lol:

Let me upload a few videos on youtube of panchester's greatest goals, send it to them, and maybe they can give a good 30 million for me.. Jesus H. Christ..

I thought they where having economic problems..
Recession? What recession! :lol:
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matt
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Post by matt » 01 Feb 2011, 14:01

I've seen that statistic about the cost of squads before, but I would counter it with this one - Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Puyol, Valdes, Busquets, Pedro, Bojan, Jeffren = £0. That is potentially ten out of Barca's starting eleven.

As ratherton quite rightly says, success is not measured by how well you use your resources, and when you compare the Arsenal squad to Barcelona's it illuminates the spending excuse as a fallback for failure.

Similarly Manchester United have not spent as much (or perhaps a better term would be 'as spectacularly') as they used to over the last few transfer windows. But this is because of the enormous debt and anyone who believes SAF when he says he is happy with what he has at his disposal, or that there is no value in the market anymore (which might be true) is naive. Necessity is not a virtue.

This transfer window - in which the record for the amount spent was obliterated - raises other points.

1) It does speak volumes about the faith Liverpool and Chelsea have in their youth teams, both of which were invested in heavily over the last few years, which I believe is not counted in the Financial Fair Play rules as expenditure. Several Chelsea youngster went out on loan over January.

2) It shows that the Financial Fair Play rules don't quite have as much backing from Abramovich as Platini likes to boast about. When his team are in form, the spending is restricted, but as soon as they flounder the chequebook is open.

3) Liverpool have conveyed statements of intent with their two signings. Firstly no longer can they be accused of being a two-man club (although if Suarez and Carroll don't settle they can easily go back to being a one-man club). Secondly whilst the owners may have more money than sense as Carroll is not worth £35m, in terms of 'net spend' (one of Benitez's favourite arguments) they haven't done too badly. Essentially not including wages they have spent about £8m on letting go of a player who wanted to leave, whilst (possibly) strengthening the squad in the process.

4) Ian Holloway has successfully established that at Blackpool, no player -even the captain - is bigger than the club. Each time an improved offer was made, the valuation went up, eventually to £14m. But there may be consequences. Adam is reported to be devastated not to have joined Liverpool. Hopefully for them, this won't have ramifications on their otherwise marvellous season.
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ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 01 Feb 2011, 17:31

TommyGun wrote:
ratherton wrote: Unfortunately, success isn't measure by balancing the books. If Wenger actually spent a small amount of money on a couple of players, Arsenal would walk the league. Instead he tries to pretend that his goal keepers are good enough and Bendtner is a forward and as a result they keep falling short.

That argument about how much the teams cost is a convenient fallback for years of failure. By that benchmark, Blackpool are more successful than Arsenal.
I beg to differ....along with the Financial Fair Play rules due to hit at the beginning of 2012. Wenger won't have to adjust, because that's been his policy from the start. These clubs that haven't spend wisely and didn't invest in their youth players will suffer.

I'm glad we don't depend on going out to drown players in money. It usually just unsettles the current squad...and who wants to do that when you're sitting 2nd? Sure, I would have loved to get a CB but on loan would have been a tough ask for a quality player. Verms is due back and I don't think we need a crowded bench of CB's waiting their turn. Fab's save percentage is 4th in the league....so it's good enough for me.

Oh....now you are joking. I was referring to today's transaction but I'll go there, too. Blackpool doesn't have the revenue stream that Arsenal doesn't, of course. What about Blackpool makes them a success? Their league position? Liverpool was in the relegation zone 2 months back and now they are 7th....so things quickly change. Blackpool doesn't have the facilities or youth program that Arsenal possess, which will continue their success by cultivating talent. When Blackpool are in the EPL for 10 years straight, then you MAY have a case(still small at that)....but you don't now.

Don't get me wrong, I love Holloway as a manager and I think he has a fantastic view of the game, on and off the field.
OK, so these rules come in to place. Are you happy Arsenal are going to defer success until them - if they manage to win anything after 2012. They don't need to spend big to win things now. I'd be furious if I had the misfortune to be a gooner.

The players will be the ones affected by the rule changes. Wages and transfer fees will have to come down. Players will still move to other clubs, Arsenal can't buy everyone.

With regards to the fair play rules. I'm pretty sure clubs will find ways round it.

Charlie Adam's fee never went anywhere near £14m. Redknapp was on the radio last night saying Spurs agreed a fee of around £7m but they couldn't get the signature in time.

Blackpool have been more successful than Arsenal this season in terms of number of points gained against how much the team cost.
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TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 01 Feb 2011, 19:22

ratherton wrote:
TommyGun wrote:
ratherton wrote: Unfortunately, success isn't measure by balancing the books. If Wenger actually spent a small amount of money on a couple of players, Arsenal would walk the league. Instead he tries to pretend that his goal keepers are good enough and Bendtner is a forward and as a result they keep falling short.

That argument about how much the teams cost is a convenient fallback for years of failure. By that benchmark, Blackpool are more successful than Arsenal.
I beg to differ....along with the Financial Fair Play rules due to hit at the beginning of 2012. Wenger won't have to adjust, because that's been his policy from the start. These clubs that haven't spend wisely and didn't invest in their youth players will suffer.

I'm glad we don't depend on going out to drown players in money. It usually just unsettles the current squad...and who wants to do that when you're sitting 2nd? Sure, I would have loved to get a CB but on loan would have been a tough ask for a quality player. Verms is due back and I don't think we need a crowded bench of CB's waiting their turn. Fab's save percentage is 4th in the league....so it's good enough for me.

Oh....now you are joking. I was referring to today's transaction but I'll go there, too. Blackpool doesn't have the revenue stream that Arsenal doesn't, of course. What about Blackpool makes them a success? Their league position? Liverpool was in the relegation zone 2 months back and now they are 7th....so things quickly change. Blackpool doesn't have the facilities or youth program that Arsenal possess, which will continue their success by cultivating talent. When Blackpool are in the EPL for 10 years straight, then you MAY have a case(still small at that)....but you don't now.

Don't get me wrong, I love Holloway as a manager and I think he has a fantastic view of the game, on and off the field.
OK, so these rules come in to place. Are you happy Arsenal are going to defer success until them - if they manage to win anything after 2012. They don't need to spend big to win things now. I'd be furious if I had the misfortune to be a gooner.

The players will be the ones affected by the rule changes. Wages and transfer fees will have to come down. Players will still move to other clubs, Arsenal can't buy everyone.

With regards to the fair play rules. I'm pretty sure clubs will find ways round it.

Charlie Adam's fee never went anywhere near £14m. Redknapp was on the radio last night saying Spurs agreed a fee of around £7m but they couldn't get the signature in time.

Blackpool have been more successful than Arsenal this season in terms of number of points gained against how much the team cost.

No, I'm happy that Arsenal won't have to "snap out of it" in terms of just going around and buying the next big thing at an inflated price. Last time I checked, your tractor boys fell to our gooners so, there ya go.

Arsenal doesn't buy everyone as it is, that's the point. I'd love for you to accurately name another EPL squad that promotes youth like Arsenal has, but you can't.

Sure, there may be loop-holes when the time comes. I'm sure some will try to place non-club revenue on the books for use(City, Chelsea for sure) but hopefully that won't be the case.

The word is that Adam is favoring a move to United/Spurs in the summer now, and never really intended to complete the move to Liverpool. I'm not really sure where he would get a massive amount of playing time in either squad, but I'm sure he's considered that.

You last statement lacks consideration. Arsenal are still in the FA Cup, the Carling Cup Final, Champions League(even when Barca take us out next), and 2nd in the league. If Blackpool were juggling what Arsenal do now...your argument would most likely be invalid. Again, allow Blackpool to stay up in the EPL for 10 years and acquire the means to purchase higher-priced players and internationals. I'd love to compare success at that point, but comparing only 5 months of Blackpool league/shorter FA/shorter CC games vs. Arsenal's packed schedule is a very short measuring stick.

Hell, the guys we have out on loan might roughly the same or more than the Blackpool squad. It doesn't change the fact that our entire squad costs less than Torres, which was the whole point I was making in the first place.
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ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 01 Feb 2011, 19:56

TommyGun wrote:
ratherton wrote:
TommyGun wrote: I beg to differ....along with the Financial Fair Play rules due to hit at the beginning of 2012. Wenger won't have to adjust, because that's been his policy from the start. These clubs that haven't spend wisely and didn't invest in their youth players will suffer.

I'm glad we don't depend on going out to drown players in money. It usually just unsettles the current squad...and who wants to do that when you're sitting 2nd? Sure, I would have loved to get a CB but on loan would have been a tough ask for a quality player. Verms is due back and I don't think we need a crowded bench of CB's waiting their turn. Fab's save percentage is 4th in the league....so it's good enough for me.

Oh....now you are joking. I was referring to today's transaction but I'll go there, too. Blackpool doesn't have the revenue stream that Arsenal doesn't, of course. What about Blackpool makes them a success? Their league position? Liverpool was in the relegation zone 2 months back and now they are 7th....so things quickly change. Blackpool doesn't have the facilities or youth program that Arsenal possess, which will continue their success by cultivating talent. When Blackpool are in the EPL for 10 years straight, then you MAY have a case(still small at that)....but you don't now.

Don't get me wrong, I love Holloway as a manager and I think he has a fantastic view of the game, on and off the field.
OK, so these rules come in to place. Are you happy Arsenal are going to defer success until them - if they manage to win anything after 2012. They don't need to spend big to win things now. I'd be furious if I had the misfortune to be a gooner.

The players will be the ones affected by the rule changes. Wages and transfer fees will have to come down. Players will still move to other clubs, Arsenal can't buy everyone.

With regards to the fair play rules. I'm pretty sure clubs will find ways round it.

Charlie Adam's fee never went anywhere near £14m. Redknapp was on the radio last night saying Spurs agreed a fee of around £7m but they couldn't get the signature in time.

Blackpool have been more successful than Arsenal this season in terms of number of points gained against how much the team cost.

No, I'm happy that Arsenal won't have to "snap out of it" in terms of just going around and buying the next big thing at an inflated price. Last time I checked, your tractor boys fell to our gooners so, there ya go.

Arsenal doesn't buy everyone as it is, that's the point. I'd love for you to accurately name another EPL squad that promotes youth like Arsenal has, but you can't.

Sure, there may be loop-holes when the time comes. I'm sure some will try to place non-club revenue on the books for use(City, Chelsea for sure) but hopefully that won't be the case.

The word is that Adam is favoring a move to United/Spurs in the summer now, and never really intended to complete the move to Liverpool. I'm not really sure where he would get a massive amount of playing time in either squad, but I'm sure he's considered that.

You last statement lacks consideration. Arsenal are still in the FA Cup, the Carling Cup Final, Champions League(even when Barca take us out next), and 2nd in the league. If Blackpool were juggling what Arsenal do now...your argument would most likely be invalid. Again, allow Blackpool to stay up in the EPL for 10 years and acquire the means to purchase higher-priced players and internationals. I'd love to compare success at that point, but comparing only 5 months of Blackpool league/shorter FA/shorter CC games vs. Arsenal's packed schedule is a very short measuring stick.

Hell, the guys we have out on loan might roughly the same or more than the Blackpool squad. It doesn't change the fact that our entire squad costs less than Torres, which was the whole point I was making in the first place.
Well done for beating a crap Championship team (eventually) - such an awesome achievement.

The point I was making is that if Wenger actually spent some of the money just sitting the Arsenal's bank account, they would probably win the league. They don't have to break the bank, it would only take a couple of players.

The fact is he won't and all they'll end up winning is the League Cup which giving how good we keep hearing Arsenal are meant to be is a crap return for the last 6 years. Going out in the first round of a cup or losing in the final still means the same thing - no trophy.
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Post by ajc » 01 Feb 2011, 20:38

Apparently Everton picked up Lee Mason yesterday, not sure why this wasn't announced anywhere. Probably the best buy at the deadline as he joined on free transfer and is beating Arsenal 1 nil at the half.
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TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 01 Feb 2011, 22:10

ratherton wrote:
TommyGun wrote:
No, I'm happy that Arsenal won't have to "snap out of it" in terms of just going around and buying the next big thing at an inflated price. Last time I checked, your tractor boys fell to our gooners so, there ya go.

Arsenal doesn't buy everyone as it is, that's the point. I'd love for you to accurately name another EPL squad that promotes youth like Arsenal has, but you can't.

Sure, there may be loop-holes when the time comes. I'm sure some will try to place non-club revenue on the books for use(City, Chelsea for sure) but hopefully that won't be the case.

The word is that Adam is favoring a move to United/Spurs in the summer now, and never really intended to complete the move to Liverpool. I'm not really sure where he would get a massive amount of playing time in either squad, but I'm sure he's considered that.

You last statement lacks consideration. Arsenal are still in the FA Cup, the Carling Cup Final, Champions League(even when Barca take us out next), and 2nd in the league. If Blackpool were juggling what Arsenal do now...your argument would most likely be invalid. Again, allow Blackpool to stay up in the EPL for 10 years and acquire the means to purchase higher-priced players and internationals. I'd love to compare success at that point, but comparing only 5 months of Blackpool league/shorter FA/shorter CC games vs. Arsenal's packed schedule is a very short measuring stick.

Hell, the guys we have out on loan might roughly the same or more than the Blackpool squad. It doesn't change the fact that our entire squad costs less than Torres, which was the whole point I was making in the first place.
Well done for beating a crap Championship team (eventually) - such an awesome achievement.

The point I was making is that if Wenger actually spent some of the money just sitting the Arsenal's bank account, they would probably win the league. They don't have to break the bank, it would only take a couple of players.

The fact is he won't and all they'll end up winning is the League Cup which giving how good we keep hearing Arsenal are meant to be is a crap return for the last 6 years. Going out in the first round of a cup or losing in the final still means the same thing - no trophy.
I only made that dig because you said "I'd be furious if I had the misfortune to be a gooner". No brag, just fact.

I agree with you to an extent. Hell, I wanted at least a CB on loan for the upcoming stretch of games at the very least. I know Verms will be back eventually but we can't just bring him back in without a run of games down the stretch. I'd love to clear out Denilson/TR7 at the very least as well. We need proper cover for Song because Denilson/Diaby are sh*t as DM's. Frimpong looked good in pre-season and reserves but he's currently injured. I can't say I agree with everything Wenger does, but it's not like I have an alternative. So far, his bet to stick with Fabs has turned out well, even after the worst stretch of form I've seen from ANY GK.

The season isn't over. I'm hoping Chelsea(with 2 games) will be able to take some points off United as they(along with United's shaky away form) seems to be the only thing that could slow them down a bit. I was saying that having more games makes your schedule and line-up/injuries a little more difficult. They fact we are in advance rounds through other competitions is the consideration I was speaking about in the last part. We have a chance to win everything or nothing this year, the same as anyone else.

What's your problem with Arsenal exactly?
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KoNJa04
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Post by KoNJa04 » 01 Feb 2011, 22:12

1. Cristiano Ronaldo
(Man Utd to Real Madrid, 2009, £80 million)

2. Zlatan Ibrahimovic
(Inter Milan to Barcelona, 2009, £56.5 million)

3. Kaka
(AC Milan to Real Madrid, 2009, £56 million)

4. Fernando Torres
(Liverpool to Chelsea, 2011, £50 million)

5. Zinedine Zidane
(Juventus to Real Madrid, 2001, £46.5 million)

6. Luis Figo
(Barcelona to Real Madrid, 2000, £37 million)

7. Hernan Crespo
(Parma to Lazio, 2000, £35.5 million)

8. Andy Carroll
(Newcastle to Liverpool, 2011, £35 million)


9. David Villa
(Valencia to Barcelona, 2010, £34 million)

10. Gianluigi Buffon
(Parma to Juventus, 2001, £32.6 million)


yeahh, he clearly doenst belong....
i love liverpool but i guess they HAD to spend to replace a player like Torres in a short amount of time.

but now if u think about it, barca got villa for 34 mil, chelsea got torres for 50 mil, who is the better one on the national team? who is in better form?

barca got a steal compared to chelsea. or liverpool for that matter.

EDIT: idk if it was a good source but i found the list on espn soccernet
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If you desire that life then pursuit it.. end of story.. no buts, no hypothetical situations, no what ifs.. you want something go get it ..
~~Panchester07

TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 01 Feb 2011, 22:39

KoNJa04 wrote: i love liverpool but i guess they HAD to spend to replace a player like Torres in a short amount of time.
That's exactly why it's so difficult to find value during the winter window. Suarez arriving spurs Torres leaving which spurs Carroll's arrival, which had Newcastle scrambling for a last-minute deal as well. These were all "This if that"-type deals force clubs to pay through the nose for players that would/could make the move. Bent looks like a deal now compared to Torres and Carroll.

I'm surprised Anelka didn't find a move somewhere else but with Sturridge being loaned, they need to keep some cover.
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KoNJa04
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Post by KoNJa04 » 01 Feb 2011, 23:59

TommyGun wrote:
KoNJa04 wrote: i love liverpool but i guess they HAD to spend to replace a player like Torres in a short amount of time.
That's exactly why it's so difficult to find value during the winter window. Suarez arriving spurs Torres leaving which spurs Carroll's arrival, which had Newcastle scrambling for a last-minute deal as well. These were all "This if that"-type deals force clubs to pay through the nose for players that would/could make the move. Bent looks like a deal now compared to Torres and Carroll.

I'm surprised Anelka didn't find a move somewhere else but with Sturridge being loaned, they need to keep some cover.
Anelka was said to come to liverpool part of the torres deal, but the player didnt want to come.
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If you desire that life then pursuit it.. end of story.. no buts, no hypothetical situations, no what ifs.. you want something go get it ..
~~Panchester07

ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy » 02 Feb 2011, 00:41

Anelka has outperformed both Torres AND Drogba this season. He is quite right to believe he can be first choice for the rest of the season.
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