Foreign player caps?

English football section, also known as Ratherton's hole
Hugh
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Foreign player caps?

Post by Hugh » 16 Dec 2007, 18:24

There we go, should the EPL institute a foreign player cap on EPL teams?

Certainly following the disastrous Euro 2008 qualification campaign the FA can't ignore the lack of English talent which must be a by-product of having so many foreigners in the EPL, so the question is should teams be restricted in the amount of foreign players they have? Sure clubs would say that it's a business, but I think it's the FA's job to ensure that they're producing good English players.

This was brought to my attention today when I was watching Arsenal and I realized that the only English player I could think of on the squad was Theo Walcott, and that he doesn't even play regularly. In fact, Arsenal's entire line-up is made up of foreign players, in the entire squad there are only 6 players out of 33 are English, that's less than 20% which I find completely ridiculous.

So I'm wondering what everyone thinks about putting caps on foreign players, I think a 50/50 split between foreign and english players would be reasonable.

Here are some more stats:
Arsenal: Total - 33 English - 6 (18%)
Chelsea: Total - 25 English - 7 (28%)
Man U: Total - 28 English - 10 (36%)
Liverpool: Total - 30 English - 9 (30%)
Man City: Total - 26 English - 9 (34%)
Everton: Total - 30 English - 13 (43%)
Portsmouth: Total - 24 English - 9 (37.5%)
Aston Villa: Total - 22 English - 12 (54%)
Rovers: Total - 30 English - 4 (13%)
Newcastle: Total - 25 English - 10 (40%)
Hammers: Total - 30 English - 16 (53%)
Tottenham: Total - 31 English - 14 (45%)
Reading: Total - 31 English - 11 (35%)
Middlesbrough: Total - 30 English - 18 (60%)
Birmingham: Total - 27 English - 8 (29%)
Bolton: Total - 32 English - 10 (31%)
Sunderland: Total - 38 English - 14 (37%)
Fulham: Total - 34 English - 10 (29%)
Wigan: Total - 28 English - 13 (46%)
Derby: Total - 27 English - (59%)


Of the top ten teams in the EPL only one has a squad that is at least half English
Out of 20 teams in the EPL only four are half-English
Out of 20 teams in the EPL seven are less than one third English

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Post by ajc » 16 Dec 2007, 19:53

I don't think limiting foreign players is a good idea, largely because it will decrease the standard of play immensely. Scottyboy had a good post in another thread which explained this position well. With all the money available to premiership clubs they are going to get the best players available from wherever they may come from. English players are generally overpriced so clubs like Arsenal and Blackburn have found players who can get the job done from other places.

Face it, the EPL is no longer a league just for England. It's a league that is marketed towards people across the world. What matters to people high up in the business side of the Premiership isn't how much English talent is being produced- they are concerned with how much revenue they can generate by signing that new foreign TV contract. Setting a cap on foreign players would take a large toll on the standard of play and the economic side of the EPL. It probably would aid in producing more English talent, but I don't believe that is worth what would be sacrificed. There have to be better ways to produce talented footballers in England besides forcing them into sides in which they generally wouldn't be good enough to play.
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unknown
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Post by unknown » 16 Dec 2007, 20:33

the lack of English talent which must be a by-product of having so many foreigners in the EPL
u make a pretty big assumption there. and it is an assumption unless u can show some data that proves the correlation. the fact is english football lacks talent because the youth players are not being developed and teams are looking for the quick answer which is a amazing super player. i totally agree with the post above me as well, limiting foreign players will do nothing. It is only a way to vent the anger at having a lack-luster english side on a scapegoat. that is my opinion and ure entitled to ures ofcourse.

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Post by ScottyBoy » 16 Dec 2007, 20:58

this is what i had to say about this in another thread - ive played a game today and am exhausted so i will post again tomorrow maybe and make it more relevant to player caps specifically




players at big clubs are self motovated. their not that intersested in their countries because their more worried about their ferraris in the car park
back in the early 1990s and before players played for more pride than money they had the privilage of playing football

because players nowadays get big money for maintaining images and do whats best for them
players coming through academies are being brought up in this enviroment which is adding to the problem there are plenty of david bentleys in football who think their bigger than club and country

this is where i disagree with you

ratherton wrote:

In addition, they have to look at the way football is going in England. I genuinely believe we need to cap the number of foreign players who can play at any one time. We need to find a way to develop more high quality English managers and players. Premier League clubs have no need to worry about the nationality of a player's nationality who joins their academy. One way to address this would be the tightening up for the work permit rules for non EU players. I have no objection to high quality players coming to England but often players are brought in because they are cheaper, not better than English players and that is wrong.


the premier league clubs need to get their fingers out and look at their multi million pound youth systems and ask why the comparative pish coming out of their academies doesnt compare to the multi million pound foreigners that learned to play football in a back alley


they need to ask why they cannot produce great players instead of waiting for a 'gem'
not only do the clubs need to shy away from picking boys for sheer pyhsical ability they need to give younger boys more freedom to express themselves. Alot of younger boys are techically brilliant but they have no spark as the british game is far more pyhsical and tactical

Having a limit on foreign players would take away from the game
the standard would certainly drop
attendances would drop
tv/ad money would significantly drop
world interest in the premiership would drop
club revenues would drop
it will effectivly take the premiership back 10-15 years



i also think the FA are corrupt looting bastards but you cant blame them for the players who ultimatly couldnt care less whether they spent their summer in Austria or their multi million pound villa in malaga

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Post by Hugh » 17 Dec 2007, 00:55

I think you're getting me wrong here, I'm taking the side, the same as ratherton does, that we can't simply have clubs operating as businesses that will buy out of country players simply because they're cheaper. That's what's fuelling the lack of English talent being produced.

Also unknown you're right, english players are just not being developed well enough, that's because they're working hard, going through the academies and then looking for some club to take them in and offer them decent wages. The club doesn't choose them because there are other players coming from different countries that are just willing to work for less, it's all tied up in how much money is in the game now.

And I don't think it will decrease the standard of play enough to stop people from doing it, it's a crime that the English Premier League has just become a business, the FA needs to step up and do their job to prevent their league from being an all-star league that's hosted in England.

And as to what ratherton said, if this sets the premier league back 10-15 years would that be such a blow? I'd say the EPL was probably a fairer, more gutsy and more entertaining league back then, instead of the bulls**t there is now.

Perhaps 50% English players is too much to ask, but how about 40, or how about 3-4 Englishmen in the starting 11?

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Post by unknown » 17 Dec 2007, 01:38

i absolutely agree with what u said :
I think you're getting me wrong here, I'm taking the side, the same as ratherton does, that we can't simply have clubs operating as businesses that will buy out of country players simply because they're cheaper. That's what's fuelling the lack of English talent being produced.
it is however the methodology that doesnt sit right with me. saying that there should be a foreign player cap is scapegoating the problem on them. it is not the foreign players faults for wanting to play and doing it for cheaper. it is the english players fault for asking for to much money. capping foreign players wont stop the english clubs from being a business. i think what shud be done is the youth system needs to be overhauled so that less players think about football as a way to make money but rather that playing in the epl allows them a chance to play against great teams and show off their own skills. which is the mindset of a lot of these foreign players. they are hungry. english youth players are lacking this hunger because they are pampered and taught that football is a profession and they forget what an honor it is to play.

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Post by ajc » 17 Dec 2007, 02:37

Hugh wrote:And as to what ratherton said, if this sets the premier league back 10-15 years would that be such a blow? I'd say the EPL was probably a fairer, more gutsy and more entertaining league back then, instead of the bulls**t there is now.
If the premier league was suddenly turned into the league it was 10-15 years ago English teams would get destroyed in champions league football considering the technical ability of sides from Spain, Italy, etc. The die hard fans who would love the league even more aren't the ones that pump the enourmous cash flow through it. That's the bandwagoners and foreigners who are willing to pay top dollar for merchandise and to watch the games on TV. It makes no financial sense at all to put a cap on foreign players and in a money driven league like the business the EPL has become financial considerations are the most influential decision makers.
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Post by Hugh » 17 Dec 2007, 03:06

Which is why it's going to be nearly impossible for England to produce top quality players in the next couple of years, which sucks.

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Post by soccer11 » 17 Dec 2007, 03:07

i'm not exactly sure who said it, it might have been Hleb, definitly someone from arsenal though. why don't the english players try their luck in other leagues. i would like to see someone go to Italy or Spain, where the play is quite different. just playing in england limits them to only one way of playing, but playing in another league would give another aspect on the game, which is why i like the hiring of capello. he'll bring a new way of playing the game, which i believe, as an outside observer, is a much needed change
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Post by mpcarres14 » 17 Dec 2007, 03:42

Hugh wrote:Which is why it's going to be nearly impossible for England to produce top quality players in the next couple of years, which sucks.
No, there are two reasons why England can't produce any good players. The first is that the media is so overhyping of the players that it either breaks them or galvinizes their ego beyond repair (I mean, these are people who feel the need to write autobiographies at the ripe old age of 25). The second is the fact that about 18 out of 20 clubs train their players like robots who have no technical ability/creativity, and instead are building a bunch of athletes whose job is to outhustle everyone. This is good against bad competition, but against the top, you'll get crushed. The only clubs that aren't doing this are Arsenal, who indirectly is saving English football, and West Ham, who create more quality players than anyone else. Now, many of you may be laughing when I say that Arsenal is saving English football, butI can prove it. First off, ignore the fact that Arsenal rarely plays Englishmen in their line-up. This has nothing to do with the advancement of the English game. Instead, realize that this is a business, and that each club who wants to go places is going to play the absolute best possible options no matter where they come from. It is not their job to make the English National team better, or even to supply them with players to win games, but instead they are in business to win trophies. Once you do that, you can see how Arsenal are doing a bunch of good for England. Think of this, Reading over the past couple of years have been reliant on Steve Sidwell and James Harper, two technically sound players who were...ex-Arsenal youths. David Bentley has become the shining light in Blackburn's team, and he comes from...Arsenal. Jerome Thomas is probably in my eyes one of Charlton's best player right now, and he came from Arsenal. Ashley Cole only one year ago was seen as the best left back in the world, and he was an Arsenal youth (in fact, this is a shining example of how Arsenal don't care about nationalities, as Sylvinho, a very good left back in his day, was shown the door in order to give a promising young left back in Cole his chance in the team). Theo Walcott is being nurtured and developed, meaning that instead of exploiting his talent, it is being molded so that he will be one of the world's best instead of just a good player. Right now, the England U-17 starting 11 is made up of three Arsenal players, all three of which are probably the most technically gifted players on the team (Gavin Hoyte, Rhys Murphy, and especially Henri Lansbury). In short, Arsenal is one of the only teams who is churning out technically able players, and this is what will bring England back to greatness. So stop making a scapegoat of Arsenal without thinking the whole thing through.
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Post by ratherton » 17 Dec 2007, 08:31

soccer11 wrote:i'm not exactly sure who said it, it might have been Hleb, definitly someone from arsenal though. why don't the english players try their luck in other leagues. i would like to see someone go to Italy or Spain, where the play is quite different. just playing in england limits them to only one way of playing, but playing in another league would give another aspect on the game, which is why i like the hiring of capello. he'll bring a new way of playing the game, which i believe, as an outside observer, is a much needed change
English players won't go abroad because they can earn more money in England.
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Post by Rulezzz » 17 Dec 2007, 09:55

I agree 110% with this cap on foreign players, let me tell you a stat:

In England 40% of players in the EPL are English, 60% foreign.
In La Liga 60% are Spanish and 40% foreign.

All i ask is for us to get up to the level of the Spanish league, i mean look at Arsenal they are an absolute joke! 2 English players in the first team(Hoyte and Walcott) and they hardly ever play! Yea theres a few coming through like Gvain Hoyte and Henri Lansbury, but it isnt good enough.

The deep rooted problem here in my opinion is our academies they are failing badly, most of the top english players seem to come from the lower divisions rather than coming through the academy of the top teams, only foreign kids seem to be coming through those academies! You probably got more chance of being a regular in the premier league if you come from a non league club! :P We have to do something, i dont care what anyone says it is a deep rooted problem.
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Post by ScottyBoy » 17 Dec 2007, 11:22

ajc wrote:
Hugh wrote:And as to what ratherton said, if this sets the premier league back 10-15 years would that be such a blow? I'd say the EPL was probably a fairer, more gutsy and more entertaining league back then, instead of the bulls**t there is now.
If the premier league was suddenly turned into the league it was 10-15 years ago English teams would get destroyed in champions league football considering the technical ability of sides from Spain, Italy, etc. The die hard fans who would love the league even more aren't the ones that pump the enourmous cash flow through it. That's the bandwagoners and foreigners who are willing to pay top dollar for merchandise and to watch the games on TV. It makes no financial sense at all to put a cap on foreign players and in a money driven league like the business the EPL has become financial considerations are the most influential decision makers.

face it the premiership would be sh*t without foreigners

people have said how "we need a foreign player cap" and gone on to say how the origin of the problem is "the failing of academies"

before i make more points can someone please explain how player caps solve the academy problem :?:

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Post by ratherton » 17 Dec 2007, 12:38

I think the Premiership is crap with the foreign players. Promoted sides have virtually no chance of staying up, the top clubs have far too much revenue which allows them to buy who they want to keep their place at the top. I regularly watch a Championship side and I can honestly say I don't want them to get promoted. Ticket prices will go up £20 a game and we'll have a season of getting beaten most weeks. Of course, Man U fans etc will think its great that they have teams to play that they can easily score 5 or 6 goals against but its not what I want to see.

It all comes down to what you want from a league.

Personally, I would prefer to see a league where at the start of the season, it would be unpredictable. Now we find ourselves with a situation that they 'arrange' the fixtures so the TV companies have this "Showdown Sunday" which saw the top 4 clubs play each other.

Having a small number of highly successful clubs is part of the problem. If the league was more balanced, would Tevez and Mascherano have left West Ham (forget all the transfer dodginess)? As players, they want to win things and so they've moved to clubs who will give them the only realistic chance to do so.

A couple of seasons ago, Arsenal lured the Ipswich goal keeper (Richard Wright) to them. He spent most of his time on the bench and Ipswich lost a quality player and ended up getting relegated.

There are plenty of examples of this nowadays and its all wrong. How long before Micah Richards decides he wants to play regular Champions League football and leaves Man City (assuming they don't make it regularly)??

Not all academies fail - Middlesboro have a very successful set up as do Ipswich. However, the reserve team at Ipswich has been 'relegated' to a playing non-league reserve sides purely because the senior side is not in the EPL. That will not help the development of our younger players so its actually a bigger problem than just the academies at clubs.
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Post by ScottyBoy » 17 Dec 2007, 18:00

ok so what your suggesting is to drag the standard of the top league down just to accommodate for the lower leagues lack of quality

bridging the gulf of class is the solution but this is not the best way to go about it

also, you dont want to see your team promoted. could they realistically get promoted (considering of the gaps in that league) couldnt they do a wigan or reading?

anyway - if there is a foreign player cap do you honestly think an english team will win the champions league in the next 10 years?

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