The Total Destroyer..

Discussion about European club leagues, Champions League and anything in UEFA
panchester07
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"Madrid needed to win the reactivate its league title options, but Mourinho played to cancel the rival and counterattack, with a posture that makes one assume that Barcelona was inherently superior than Madrid. Similarly, the grass was higher than normal, and wasn't watered in the previous hours to the match* supposedly orders from Jose... All this to complicate the fast and fluid game of the azul granas"

*The pitch is supposed to be watered 8 times in the hours previous to the match..

If you can't beat your rival with football, and have to look for other strategies that give you advantages, you are indoubtly stating that they are bigger and better than you, and you being a smaller team need to look for other advantages to try and level yourself up to them.
^^That's called home field advantage
No, home advantage is playing infront of 100,000 fans of yours, and playing in a field you practice in everyday and are much more familiar and comtable in, and that intimidates your rivals.

Making the field a potato plantation is looking for ways to cheat because your not confident enough in your own game.
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

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nick117
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Madrid took it to one extreme with the field barca probably takes it to the other either way it is a home field advantage until the spanish fa decides how it has to be one way or another. It's not cheating when both teams play on the same field.

ScottyBoy
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After being spanked 5-0 Real Madrid needed to believe they can beat Barca. If they had lost 2, 3-0 everyone would be saying how Barca are going to win it all easily. Now there is more competition if you like, to write madrid off would be silly. That is all Mourinho ccould have wanted from that game.

If you want to talk about unsporting behaviour what about when Madrid put the ball out of play for an injured Barca player then Xavi just kicked the ball out for a throw in in the Madrid half.
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panchester07
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nick117 wrote:Madrid took it to one extreme with the field barca probably takes it to the other either way it is a home field advantage until the spanish fa decides how it has to be one way or another. It's not cheating when both teams play on the same field.
That maybe so, but you have to understand, that the long grass and dry field benefits the style of game Madrid was playing (long balls, counterattack) and made harder Barca's style of play which is tiki-taka and possesion. It isn't cheating but its bending the rules in your favor or whatever. Its looking for outside advantages to help you win cause you can't win alone. Its insecurity, and knowing from before hand that you're not good enough to win cleanly, so you have to look for other ways of stopping the rival, cause you can't do it alone, not even in your home ground.

The spanish FA hasn't dealt with these cases before and i think its the first time a team applies this strategy. It will be interesting to see what they decide about it.
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

klc123
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Zlatan5 wrote:Lol, I'll never understand Barca fans. They walk around talking like football is "them", and that nothing else matters but Barca. Funny thing is, Barca, at least the Barca, that everyone seems to be supporting right about now, didn't really start showing their true colors, if you will, till maybe around the 07-08 season. I can honestly ask 10 out of 15 Barca fans, when did you start supporting Barca, and who is your favorite player, and I can already pre-determine the two answers.

1. When they beat Man U. Or last/this year.
2. Messi

And the great thing is, if they lose, they can never lose without making an excuse...oh the refs...oh they played too physical, for example when Inter held them in last years CL, I did not hear the end of the excuses from Barca "fans". If you ever watch a Barca game, watch the refs just protect Messi, protect Barca players, and if a Barca player commits a foul, watch them just bitch bitch bitch. Watch Sergio, Pique, Xavi, and Iniesta constantly give referees an earful to possibly help influence the ref.

Now, I'm not trying to just bash Barca, because I enjoy watching them pass about, I'm just trying to see if I'm the only one who isn't going absolutely insane listening to people talk about Barcelona as if Jesus took a sh*t and it was Barca, then plastered them in 24k gold encrusted with diamonds, blessed by Elvis.

I personally enjoyed watching Barca play when Ronaldinho and Deco were pulling the strings- that is the Barca team I am a fan of.
Where are you getting that from?

I don't think Inter were too physical with Barca last year, I believe from a tactical standpoint mourinho completely outclassed pep and gave him a lesson he was never going to forget, and that without a doubt Inter were the team that deserved to go through over the two legs. Some fans, of any team, will always make excuses when they lose, but I haven't seen many/any barca fans making the excuses you are stating on these forums.

Referees should protect players. And it isn't a one way affair. If a player is breaking the rules, which 99% of football fans don't properly understand well enough in my opinion, then the referees should step in to take action against those committing fouls. Rules are there for a reason, if players start moaning when another player commits a foul then it isn't the player who is moaning at fault, it is the person who committed the foul who is at fault.

For the record, I think Messi is the best in the world, but Xavi is my favourite player, and Ronaldinho is a massive part of the reason I began to support Barcelona.

Edit:

I realise I went way off track.

Panchester, look at it from Real Madrid's point of view. If you got absolutely spanked 5-0 by your rivals earlier on in the year, and then later on in the year you hold them to a 1-1 draw, that is a sign of improvement. Whether it actually means improvement or not is a different matter, but looking at the facts alone, it will make Real Madrid supporters believe that they are "close the gap" between themselves and Barcelona's level of play.

Real have known la liga is over for a while. Their priorities have been copa del rey and Champions league. If you know you are about to play the final against your rivals in the copa del ray, and play them twice in the Champions league semi finals, you will be in a better frame of mind having just drawn with them in the league than getting spanked by them 2-0 or more.

From that stand point of things, what we saw on saturday was psychological brilliance at its very best from Mourinho. He knows the league is over, so there is no need to go out and try and beat Barcelona, as the more likely result if he attempts to do that is they get beaten. So instead he parks the bus, and tries to ensure that Real don't lose. That is the significance of it all. The fact that they didn't lose to Barcelona, will make the fans, and most of all the players, begin to believe in their hearts that they can go toe to toe with Barcelona and finally have a chance of coming out on top.

That's what I believe is the case anyway. It also has had a massive knock in confidence for Barcelona players, a team that they destroyed 5-0 at home can now hold them to a 1-1 draw, even if it is away. The final at Valencia this wednesday is not home or away, and therefore, it has planted a seed of doubt in every Barcelona player that will have been growing for the last 2 days.

panchester07
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The fact that they didn't lose to Barcelona, will make the fans, and most of all the players, begin to believe in their hearts that they can go toe to toe with Barcelona and finally have a chance of coming out on top.
I understand your point man.

They believed that in november, and look what happened. In reality if they play toe to toe against Barcelona they will get raped, and parking the bus is the only real way they can compete with barcelona.

Barcelona's confidence knocked down ? 8 titles in 2 years, that means challenge after challenge, each team bigger than the other one, chelsea, manchester united, real madrid, bla bla bla, they have a challenge in front of them, but theres no reason for a team with this amount of success to be lacking in confidence, baring in mind the tie is an exellent result for them.

No seed, or branch, or tree of doubt man.. A tie in Bernabeu is still a positive result, the ball is round and teams can compete. Barcelona know they are the best team in the world right now, now they are 8 points on top, and play every game like its the last. Maybe the gap has been closed between the two a little, but Barcelona was the bigger team, so if anyone would be doubting anything its Real, who have been loosing to this team for the last 3 years. They play to win each game, and are faithful to their style.

Do you have any evidence to show that the Barcelona players are doubting or worried? Seems to me that your assuming this. 1-1 away in bernabeu with 1 match less to be played in the league is very positive, gratned they are ambitious and wanted to win, a 1-1 puts them closer to their goal, and kicks madrid further behind.

If madrid have beaten them, by attacking them and dominating them then they MIGHT be a little worried, but this is football and even if they lost 3-1 they have to play to the limit for they are profesional's. Didn't Mourinho's Inter beat them 3-1 last year, and they brushed it off and made a terrific match at home, inches away from the final?

By your logic, wouldn't Madrid have a huge seed, infact a full grown tree with fruits and leafs and even a pretty little nest with birds in it, since Barcelona beat them 5-0 in november, and the seed has grown all the way till April??
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

klc123
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That was my point, the Real supporters and players would be fearing barcelona if they got beaten again by Barcelona, especially after 5-0 in November. But they drew, and that effectively has cut the tree of doubt down.

I'm not saying that Real have a massive reason to believe in themselves, and I'm not saying Barcelona have a reason to doubt themselves, but regardless the human mind always thinks about these things in a certain way, whether they put on a brave face and pretend not to be effected or not doesn't matter, because behind the mask they will still be thinking these things.

panchester07
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I'm not saying that Real have a massive reason to believe in themselves, and I'm not saying Barcelona have a reason to doubt themselves, but regardless the human mind always thinks about these things in a certain way, whether they put on a brave face and pretend not to be effected or not doesn't matter, because behind the mask they will still be thinking these things.
Once again i understand.

But how is a 1-1 in your biggest rival's home, with a post, a few unfinished 1 v 1's, and a few more clear cut chances a bad result man?Specially when your 8 points ahead, and basically you have won the league.. Its a magnificent result.

They where down 2-1 vs Arsenal... Did they have a huge seed of doubt that grew for 2 weeks and therefor choked in the second leg?

Ehhh.. No, they won 3-1 and Arsenal didn't have a shot on goal in the second leg.

I understand your logic but I don't share it, I can't tell you barca are doubtfull against Madrid because its not true. They are gonna keep playing tiki-taka and attacking football and try and win. Once again, they did so vs Inter, they did so vs Arsenal, Stuggart, Lyon, Sporting Gijon did so vs Real Madrid. Its very common in football to see a team tie another team and then for one them to beat the other one? That happens like 20 times per season in each league atleast.

In football teams play to win, the seed of doubt is in your imagination. I can assure you Barcelona will play their same style with the same confidence as always. a 1-1 wont make them nervous specially when a 3-1 or much worse results haven't. Not Barca, or not anyother team. Did chelsea have a seed of doubt when they faced Man Utd last week?

I understand the moral boost madrid have, finally not loosing to barcelona this time, but trust me its a final, and its 11 vs 11, barcelona wont break, its really absurd to actually think that.

An amateur player will think: Man these guys tied me, i couldn't beat them this time, oh oh :shock:

A profesional player thinks: These guys tied me in their home, lets get them this time, like we have done the last 3 years.

A World Class player thinks: Wow, these guys where lucky to tie me 1-1, we have beat them many times this season, they had to cheat to tie us, in THEIR ground, that penalty never existed, and inspite of all that their coach complains about the ref, and how he's tired of playing with 10 vs us, like if we pay the ref. I'm tired of this horse sh*t, lets show them who we are, lets go out their hungry for victory. Lets go with blood in our eyes, lets play our game.

They don't think: Oh oh they tied me 1-1, i'm so doubtfull, its like i have a seed of doubt in my head.
Last edited by panchester07 on 18 Apr 2011, 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

nick117
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panchester07 wrote:
I'm not saying that Real have a massive reason to believe in themselves, and I'm not saying Barcelona have a reason to doubt themselves, but regardless the human mind always thinks about these things in a certain way, whether they put on a brave face and pretend not to be effected or not doesn't matter, because behind the mask they will still be thinking these things.
Once again i understand.

But how is a 1-1 in your biggest rival's home, with a post, a few unfinished 1 v 1's, and a few more clear cut chances a bad result man?Specially when your 8 points ahead, and basically you have won the league.. Its a magnificent result.

They where down 2-1 vs Arsenal... Did they have a huge seed of doubt that grew for 2 weeks and therefor choked in the second leg?

Ehhh.. No, they won 3-1 and Arsenal didn't have a shot on goal in the second leg.

I understand your logic but I don't share it, I can't tell you barca are doubtfull against Madrid because its not true. They are gonna keep playing tiki-taka and attacking football and try and win. Once again, they did so vs Inter, they did so vs Arsenal, Stuggart, Lyon, Sporting Gijon did so vs Real Madrid. Its very common in football to see a team tie another team and then for one them to beat the other one? That happens like 20 times per season in each league atleast.

In football teams play to win, the seed of doubt is in your imagination. I can assure you Barcelona will play their same style with the same confidence as always. a 1-1 wont make them nervous specially when a 3-1 or much worse results haven't. Not Barca, or not anyother team. Did chelsea have a seed of doubt when they faced Man Utd last week?

I understand the moral boost madrid have, finally not loosing to barcelona this time, but trust me its a final, and its 11 vs 11, barcelona wont break, its really absurd to actually think that.
you must be reading this weirdly. He's saying NOTHING about barca having doubt it's all about madrid not having doubt which is all they went out to gain.

panchester07
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Ehh no nick, he's actually saying the 1-1 "planted a seed of doubt in bcn that will be growing in these 2 days"
whether they put on a brave face and pretend not to be effected or not doesn't matter, because behind the mask they will still be thinking these things.
he final at Valencia this wednesday is not home or away, and therefore, it has planted a seed of doubt in every Barcelona player that will have been growing for the last 2 days.
I agree its a moral boost for madrid, but why the hell would bcn be insecure or worried about sh*t. like if they never ever tied a match in their career.
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

klc123
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If Barcelona went to Madrid on saturday and stuffed them 5-0 again, they would come into the next 3 classico's thinking "wow, we have beaten this team 5-0 twice already, lets go torture them some more and keep up the beating."

Drawing with Madrid wasn't a bad result by anyone's standards, but it wasn't the best possible result. Maybe me saying that Barcelona will doubt themselves is putting it the wrong way. Perhaps it would be better to say that Barcelona will not be as confident in themselves as they would be if they had won the game instead.

I don't care what level of playing we are talking about, amateur, professional or world class, you will always have more confidence playing a team you have just destroyed than a team you have just drawn against, no matter how good you are and how much confidence you have in your teams ability.

shahensha
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The first Clasico showed us how much fear Mourinho has for Barca, but he is ready with his [usual] armoury [of excuses] to divert attention away from it so as not to talk about the football.

Mourinho’s lineup is the biggest compliment he can give Barca. To be playing at home with seven defenders is a sign that he must be very afraid. In their day, the Bernabeu usually does not allow this kind of approach taken by their coach, even if it means winning them the League. That is, at least, until today. Capello can attest to that.

Full of fear but always ready. That is how Mourinho is. The press conference before the game served as prelude for him to make his ‘justification’ after the Clasico. Selectively choosing what questions to respond, he keeps on reverting to the ‘I’m with 10, they’re always with 11’ speech without having to explain why he had fielded so many defenders. Is anyone annoyed by his attitude? For some it does but not for some others. And in that division he found the cover he can use to talk about everything except football.

Mourinho is a coach [hell-bent] on titles, not football. Or to put it in another way, not a football coach the way we understand how the sport is played as a spectacle or entertainment for those who see it, be it live or at home. Nevertheless it also managed to [inadvertently] help Barca… alot. If the Blancos coach was able to come out with what he got at the Bernabeu, he is not going to be able to do the same again at the Mestalla with only one [final] game to play, and a title at stake. For Guardiola and his players would have been forewarned. And while always being faithful to their style, they [know they] will have to improve [on their game].

Dressing up as a small team

Mourinho said he always trains with a ‘10 against 11’ game-plan whenever he has had to face the Blaugranas. If so, then it would do Barca some good if they are to train and develop a ‘11 against 10’ game-plan. For two reasons: One, if Madrid still insist on playing like a small inferior team, insisting on playing at the back, giving up the pitch, the ball, and all the initiative to Barca, then it is only natural that one of them will get his marching orders again. If I am Mourinho, I would train not for a ‘10 against 11’ but a ‘9 against 11’ game-plan for if Pepe is to play in the same position, with the same kind of role, repeating the same kind of performance, the Brazilian-born Portuguese is certain not to finish the game.

The Madrid-Barca game reminded me a lot of the Netherlands and Spain final from the last World Cup. That day, to my shame, Holland players dedicated themselves more to break up than to play football. And so it went. Defeated and leaving a very bad image for the world to see. What is interesting is that the same people [Madrid press] who are now applauding the tactics used by Mourinho with Madrid – a very good Madrid side with a wealth of talent – were angry with the approach taken by the Dutch that day, and rightly so.

The second reason, as in the case of Barcelona, ​​train and perfect their ‘11 against 10’ strategy. That is because it is not acceptable when a rival, with one less player, was able to create more chances than they were. Obviously something was wrong. Basically it is down to two things. One, in their head, subconsciously, they had assumed that down 0-1 and with one less, Madrid is left for dead. And they took their foot off the pedal, upfront and at the back. And two, for the rival, it is exactly the opposite, with everyone giving a little more. The solution? Simple, but effective: the ball, always playing it a little quicker, no matter how bad the pitch, and of positioning, as they would against 11 but a few meters back, no more, and looking for the one-on-one encounter all over the entire pitch, doing so until they can make use of their numerical superiority.

Superiority, that by making the opponents moving back and forth, emphasizing on the one-on-one, is sure to translate into spaces, and then yes, their numerical advantage will count. If that happened on Saturday they would be able to react more forcefully than a team playing with one less. It is their fault rather than their opponent’s virtue. In the first Clasico, at the Camp Nou, whether they believe it or not, Real Madrid thought they were of the same quality as Guardiola’s team, they were utterly defeated 5-0.

Taking a step towards the title

Now, having adapted themselves to Barca’s game, ​​from their offensive game to the endless tackles intended on stopping the opponent’s strengths rather than to enhance their own, Madrid managed a draw, and a thank you note from them. Coming from where they came from, the 5-0, and that other 5-0 (Guardiola’s Barca victories over Real Madrid in the last three years), the draw may not seem much but it is, [in essence a] big [deal].

What is perfect is the eight point advantage Barca has in the league with one less game [towards the end]. Sure it was not Barca’s best game of the year but even so, with the faithfully [ugly] approach taken by Mourinho all season long, the Blaugranas ended tying up the match and taking another step towards the title that, once and for all, proves who is the best and who is not.


Johan Cruyff


The football Barcelona played at the Bernabéu was just brilliant. Their superiority was patent and on view for all the world to see. They've got something that Real Madrid don't have. The whites were hemmed in by opposition that dominated the midfield throughout the whole match. Barcelona played football and danced; Real Madrid just ran up and down, tiring themselves out.

Only if Xavi, Iniesta or Busquets lost the ball did Real Madrid ever try to put together an attack, but of course it was with a punt upfield in the hope that something might come of it. And whenever those three wanted, they could put the sheep to sleep passing the ball to one another with complete mastery, short and straight to the feet — perfectly executed, tight passes that were safe and sure for whoever was on the receiving end.

It was as if they wanted to take the ball home with them, because it was all theirs. Their mission was to feed the Barcelona strikers — and how well fed they were! — because they are so crushingly effective and the ease with which they create danger is permanent.

"Besides maintaining a very quick pace without once letting it up, the Barcelona players fought like true gladiators. They worked very hard indeed off the ball and never stopped moving.

"There was no negotiation, no refusal to paint their work of art on that green canvas, whatever the final scoreline might say, because they even played pretty football, always well placed. Their positioning in the team is a key factor. All their players show that a level of tactical thinking that is unmatched, with a highly developed sense of interchanging their roles.

The defensive effort was all Real Madrid’s, like the lion against the mouse. They were unable to neutralise their opponents with effective pressing in midfield, which is what they needed to do, although stopping Barça from making you so dizzy you end up reeling is much easier said than done. For the spectator, their well-put-together attacks in combination were a wonderful thing to see.

For as long as Di Maria had the strength to break through on the few occasions he had the ball, he was Madrid’s best player (along with “Saint Iker” Casillas, who deserves to be canonised right now).

Messi is the best in the world. Not only is his football spectacular, as an example of professionalism he also knows no rival. He shone on Saturday and it will be wonderful to watch him again in Wednesday’s Cup Final.

Barcelona’s success comes from their attacking approach, wisely applied to mature and become consolidated in time for the three more Clásicos that are upcoming. Attacking means you have to control time as well as your nerves.

Given all this, it’s obvious that Barcelona are better than Real Madrid, and that trying to build up attacking moves based on counter-attacks is not the most appropriate way to try to catch them by surprise. Their technical and tactical quality is such that they always occupy the pitch in a rational, well-balanced way, leaving no free spaces to be filled and taken advantage of.

Pep Guardiola's team always had their hands firmly on the reins of the match. With this result they’re now another step closer to their third consecutive Liga title, and the truth is that they deserve it, because they've done their homework properly. They’ve never stopped being themselves and it’s plain for anyone to see that they enjoy themselves and have fun when they play.

Another thing that needs saying is that Real Madrid aren’t making their fans feel as happy as they deserve to be, because the fans’ support for the team has been unconditional. Real Madrid showed more heart than order, and in the end their ambitions were frustrated.

Things I liked

I like and admire the huge dominance of Barcelona’s play. It’s football to be watched not with your eyes but with your soul. They treat the ball with respect, with adoration, almost pampering it. Watching this team in action is a delight for us all.

Things I didn’t like

Real Madrid was a team with no personality. This match should set the guidelines for how the next one needs to be faced, because the approach of trying to play against Barcelona with counterattacks is clearly not the way to go.


- Alfredo Di Stefano (Marca, 18 April 2010)

There you have it folks. The honorary presidents of each club voicing their opinions (yeah, in my eyes, cruyff is still the honorary president)

I dont have any input because I didnt watch the game. I am checking out the re-run tonight but from what I have been reading from comments here and there on the net, apparently Barcelona wasnt trying hard. They made quick passes but it was like I was watching AC Milan play from 3 years ago. They moved like old people :lol: perhaps, suggesting the idea that Pep might be following Cruyff's advice about efficiency and winning two games out of the 4.

shahensha
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Zlatan5 wrote: Watch Sergio, Pique, Xavi, and Iniesta constantly give referees an earful to possibly help influence the ref.
i dont really see don andres or pique complaining to the ref constantly if truth be told.......but yeah, xavi has gotten suspended for accumulating 5 yellow cards in la liga this year and only 1 was from a foul :lol:

Edit:

And my favourite quoute of all!!!!!!!!
We will win the copa......if we respect our rivals, if we dont fall in their provocations and if we stay faithful to our style
Pep to his players


pleeeeeeeeeeeeease never leave pep! i have never seen a coach with such class and honour.

klc123
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I hate how there is already talks of his time at barca coming to an end...

shahensha
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prolly because he mentioned how it is difficult to stay on forever. the players get tired of the same old routine and the coach feels the same too. perhaps he remembers what rijkaard went through.

the press would have taken it as common sense but the fact that he only signs one year contracts while many of the first team players are bound till 2015 makes them take it a bit too seriously

in anycase, i wish he'd be the SAF of Barcelona

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