Round of 16 UCL

Discussion about European club leagues, Champions League and anything in UEFA
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shahensha
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we are going too in depth with this debate ( the intelligent points are too well written for my laziness to cope with :lol: )

Has anyone pointed out that Messi was too damn selfish? 3-4 times he had the chance to square the ball for an easy tap-in and he just decided to shoot for goal.........I mean come on, villa had only one shot in the game but he was in a scoring position many more times. If Messi had involved villa more in the game, perhaps Pep wouldnt have felt the need to take him out.

I am not bitter about this loss. Arsenal beat us at our own game (spreading the ball around, team press defence, counter-kill), instead of taking the dastardly anti-football route that almost every team thinks is the strategy to beat Barcelona.

As for the gunners being very ecstatic to come from behind and beat Barcelona. I cant blame them because of all the media hyping, Barcelona has fallen under the "team to beat" cliche.

Anyways, tomorrow should be exciting. Lets see if hiring mourinho brings about a change in Madrid's CL shortcomings........id prefer if their currently woeful CL tradition continues but you all know where I am coming from :lol:

klc123
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Forgive me if I am incorrect, but I believe that Panch has brought up the point of Messi been too greedy before.

It is difficult to come to a conclusion on that sort of debate. When Maradona scored against England in the world cup, no one was saying he was greedy, even though he obviously was, they were saying that he was the best player in the world, which was also evident.

TommyGun
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klc123 wrote:Forgive me if I am incorrect, but I believe that Panch has brought up the point of Messi been too greedy before.

It is difficult to come to a conclusion on that sort of debate. When Maradona scored against England in the world cup, no one was saying he was greedy, even though he obviously was, they were saying that he was the best player in the world, which was also evident.
yeah, I think it's fair to say that most of the best attacking players in the world that aren't CM's(because of their distributing role) are considered a bit greedy. Messi, Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney, Berba, Ibra, Nani, etc.
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panchester07
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klc123 wrote:Forgive me if I am incorrect, but I believe that Panch has brought up the point of Messi been too greedy before.

It is difficult to come to a conclusion on that sort of debate. When Maradona scored against England in the world cup, no one was saying he was greedy, even though he obviously was, they were saying that he was the best player in the world, which was also evident.
In reality Messi has been greedy and obsessed with the goal a little bit lately.. Strikers and goal scores have to be greedy, but when the game is 1-1 and you have 2 men in a much better position not giving a square ball for an easy tap in is call greedyness man..

Its something thats been commented lately, how he's a little bit more anxious for scoring, and a bit more obssessed with scoring...

I'm not comparing him to other strikers, im comparing him to other versions of Messi, when he was still the best in the world, but he wasn't so goal obsessed.... Even earlier this season, he would know when to do those elegant plays where he left 3 behind, and when to give a pass for a teammate in a better position....

Now, its been comented and mentioned how he's more goal hungry in not the best of ways, some shots with no angle, with little opportunities of going in when Villa and Pedro are in the small box perfectly available...... that sort of thing

Don't get me wrong, no one can't touch Messi, but I do see him more "anxious" and trying to force goals a lot....Probably something that will wear off once he gets a hattrick soon or something... But he is more greedy than usual laately IMHO and i've seen comments about it aswel.. if you differ, i can respect that.

Making individual plays when you can leave 3 men behind is not greedyness, but taking a shot and trying to score youself when its very hard and you have open men on your side asking for it is being selfish and a little desperate for scoring..

Just today vs Bilbao, he faked out a defender towards the end beautifully dribbled all the way to the box, and instead of playing a deadly pass in, he decides to shoot for the keeper to make an easy save?

Apart from a few selfish plays lately, and 1-2 today, Messi was SUPER-MESSI today, that play where he left 3 behind and was tackled that wasn't called a pk would have been one of the best goals i ever seen..
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collin
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Pan i completely agree with you, i have also noticed this and in both Messi and Ronaldo, i think it comes down to getting the most goals in their league and being world player of the year, some may disagree but i really think thats what it is, its like some kind of race between ronaldo and messi and its not just their fault its also the media

panchester07
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Yeah its beeing talked lately that Messi is more anxious and obsessed.. Nothing way over the top, but more than its natural in him, and a bit more than its healthy.. Like I said instead of playing it square for an easy tap in, shoot with no angle in hopes of surprising the keeper? Messi knows better..
haha shahensa i just read your post didn't see it at first, good to know we think completely the same about Messi lately..

So.. who do you experts of this art we like to call football think are winning the matches Tuesday and Wednsday?

Kopenhague - Chelsea

Lyon - Real Madrid

Inter Milan - Bayern Munchen

Marseille - Manchester United

IMHO Chelsea and Kopenhaguen tie, really, Chelsea's not playing well and Kopenhaguen can play really good at home as we saw vs Barcelona in the group stages...

Real Madrid will beat Lyon 1-2 because they are top 5 teams in europe and Mourinho is an expert in 2 legged matches.. Lyon just lost this weekend as well so...

Inter and Bayern is a tricky one, nice repetition of the final, Inter is playing like sh*t compared to last year, and all italy except maybe Napoli suck right now.. Juventus loosing games, Rianeri quitting as a coach, Milan being so unconstant, league is a joke right now, and there wont be an italian champion of the ucl in many years to come... I tihnk Bayern can win 1-2 over the south american italians..

Manchester United wins over Marseille
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soccer11
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Copenhagen-Chelsea- I agree. Chelsea are not on form at all. They're terrible right now and the match is in Copenhagen so I see a 1-1 tie or maybe even a Copenhagen 2-1 win.

Lyon-Real Madrid- Real Madrid will win this. Mourinho is good at playing to his players emotions so you can bet he'll remind them of last year. Real (I would assume) will be extra motivated to not let that happen again. The match is in Lyon but that won't matter. I can see the game going 3-1 Real but 2-1 is a more reasonable outcome.

Marseille-Manchester United- United are flying high at the moment. Marseille might give them a little trouble but I think United will come out on top 1-0. Sir Alex likes going with 5 mids in big games so I can see him doing that here as well, but I'd like to see the Berbatov and Rooney pair up top instead.

Inter-Bayern- I've caught a fair amount of Bayern games this season and they are a different team with Robben and Ribery in the line up. Bayern's defense isn't too strong but Inter as a whole aren't very strong either. Müller, Robben, Ribery, and (probably) Gomez will run rough shot over Inter, 2-0 with some missed chances on both sides.
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panchester07
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So basically we agree on everything yeah?

Madrid over Lyon, for its Mourinho..

Kopenhague and Chelsea draw, or even win for Chelsa isn't doing good right now..

Bayern Munchen win over Inter cause Robben is back and on fire and they are playing well.. and inter plays ugly and wins 1-0 parkign the bus in the back..

And United over Marseille

Looks pretty good
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Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

soccer11
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panchester07 wrote:So basically we agree on everything yeah?
For once, right? :P

I think overall we're in for some good matches tomorrow and wednesday. The one I think has the potential to be great is the Bayern-Inter match. Bayern want revenge. Inter will want to show that they're still European Champions. You'd think they get their form back eventually, right? It could turn out to be a fun match.
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shahensha
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i want robben to try and choke ribery this time, only to realize he is too ugly to touch

klc123
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Panch I thought it was a penalty against Messi. That run was phenomenal and he was just smashed off the ball with no attempt from the defender to win the ball.

panchester07
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klc123 wrote:Panch I thought it was a penalty against Messi. That run was phenomenal and he was just smashed off the ball with no attempt from the defender to win the ball.
Yeah, it was a pk, thats what I meant to write but maybe i didn't add coma's and its harder to write.. It was gonna be a great goal, and he got fouled, and the pk didn't even get called :roll:

An interesting fact going back to the Villa/Ibra discussion... Villa is just 1 goal away in this stage of the season of tying Ibra in goals scored in his only season in FCB.. Ibra scored 21 in the whole season, and Villa already has 20, in february :roll:

I still think E'too was the best striker Barcelona had, but, Villa might make us all forget about Samuel.
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

TommyGun
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panchester07 wrote:
klc123 wrote:Panch I thought it was a penalty against Messi. That run was phenomenal and he was just smashed off the ball with no attempt from the defender to win the ball.
Yeah, it was a pk, thats what I meant to write but maybe i didn't add coma's and its harder to write.. It was gonna be a great goal, and he got fouled, and the pk didn't even get called :roll:

An interesting fact going back to the Villa/Ibra discussion... Villa is just 1 goal away in this stage of the season of tying Ibra in goals scored in his only season in FCB.. Ibra scored 21 in the whole season, and Villa already has 20, in february :roll:

I still think E'too was the best striker Barcelona had, but, Villa might make us all forget about Samuel.
I think the E'too for Ibra deal was bad business, but I don't consider Ibra to be a complete failure. He scored in his first 4 games for Barcelona(that's a record) + to move to a different league with no like-international teammates to settle in with and still managed to score the 6th most goals in the league(16). He had a thigh strain and calf strain that allowed Pedro to shine in order to take some starts from him. Ibra's ego clearly worked against him within a club that is well put together and places the team's needs over the individual. I think that's why Milan suits him much more now....he's able to be himself(out-spoken, selfish, spot-light, etc.)

Villa is playing with multiple Spain internationals that have played with him for years + La Liga experience. He fits in the system much easier and is the best option between the two moving forward. I just sucks they had to do such a cheap deal on Ibra and couldn't manage more money out of him. Milan got a steal compared to what Barca had to pay+trade just a year before.

Villa and Ibra's lifetime numbers(across all clubs) are very similar, averaging almost a goal every other game. Saying they aren't on the same level is very tough to justify.
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shahensha
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Yeah it is difficult to justify whether ibra is at the same level as villa or not. Ibrahimovich has been very influential for Milan this season because he is too used to Serie A. Villa on the other hand, seems to have excellent chemistry with messi because they have faced each other on countless occasions and thus la pulga knows of el guaje's off the ball movement very well.

Ibrahimovich was a great idea at first; however his attitude was a very big problem for Guardiola. Even eto'o was shipped off because there wasnt a "feeling" between those two. (i really had no idea what that meant when i read it but i thought it had to do something with eto'o's usual passionate outbursts.) so ibra never stood a chance.

All in all, it worked out in the end. Villa brings the technical excellence of ibra and the lung busting movement of Eto'o, which is a great boon for his teammates.....as long as messi remembers to pass to him so he can take more than one shot :lol:

klc123
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It is very easy to be sucked into the hole of comparing the amount of goals they scored. But that really doesn't paint a fair picture.

Villa's attempted chip that came off the cross bar, was a superb effort. Villa tends to do things like that every game, where as Ibra very rarely done such things to such positive effect.

Villa also works a hell of a lot harder. This is essential in Barca's system, where the first line of defence is the strikers, running like headless chickens to close down players on the ball.

He is much more aware of how the position (or for that matter lack of it) works in Barcelona. The total football concept of the dutch is mirrored into Barca through Crujff, and the system only works if all the cogs are functioning perfectly.

Finally, I do think he is a better striker overall. No disrespect to Ibra who was and still is superb, but Villa has a much more composed sense of reliability. Ibra scored so many goals because he played very often as a true centre forward in a system that generates a lot of possession. That is a recipe for chances, and even if his finishing was diabolical, he would still have netted many goals. Villa on the other hand often actually begins out wide left and works his way in. He gets less chances, but he fulfils his purpose absolutely perfectly. I'll explain.

Typically Messi will start in the "centre forward" position, with say villa on the left wing, and perhaps pedro on the right. Now Messi never ever plays as a centre forward, instead he plays as a false 9, and very often drops back deep looking for the ball. What this results in is the two centrebacks who should have been watching him are pulled out of position, and one is often left stranded. Villa and Pedro then have acres of space to run into, and when you have passers like Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, the rather symbolic pass that Barcelona so often use comes up time and time again, in which the ball is played from the centre of the field, in between the full back and centre back, for the wingers to run onto. This creates an instant one on one with the keeper, and when that player is Villa/Pedro, the odds most definitely are not on the keepers side.

That sort of thing rarely happened with Ibra, because realistically he was a total mismatch for the type of football Guardiola tries to reinforce in the club. No disrespect to ibra, he is a fantastic player, but he simply doesn't fit.

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