Round of 16 UCL

Discussion about European club leagues, Champions League and anything in UEFA
panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 08 Mar 2011, 22:23

I'm gonna have to say I agree with ajc... In the table with my friends, mostly cule fans, I was the only one to say i didn't think the red card was fair... A minimum amount of time passed since he controlled the ball and shot it, and at first, everybody was like damn ,that was a good chance to arsenal, to wtf a red card??? it was really quick, and even if Van Persie heard it, I wouldn't have a given him a yellow card for it cause he was already gonna shoot when the whistle was blown..

It did change the game and you have to admit it.....

Apart from that, Barca was better from start to finish, had much more the ball, posts, 1 v 1's, chances, shots, and dangerous plays..Busquets' own goal was the only way Arsenal was gonna score and the better team did advance...

Bendtners "chance" wasn't even a chance, so don'¡t play the wat if game, Messi's 1 v1,'s Almunias save against Villa, Adriano's shots, and all those saves where chances, Bendtner didn't even shoot..
You can say it wasn't for a red, and that is fair but its not like Arsenal was doing much anyway...and its not like Barcelona didn't have a 1 on 1 situation almost every ten minutes or less....

My point is, yes it was an unfair red, but honestly and neutrally, Barca where much better and deserved to make it through, and Bendtners chance isn't even "a chance" cause Messi went through 3 in the first half and got obstructed by a defender in the last second as well.... Mascherano is huge.. Its not Barca's fault Bendtner is so clumsy.. Its not like it hit the post or got cleared in the line, he didn't even shoot on goal.
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ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy » 08 Mar 2011, 22:25

Both arguements have merit. Arsenal had 0 shots on goal, but at the same time Barca were perhaps 1 kick away from losing to 10 man Arsenal.
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ajc
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Post by ajc » 08 Mar 2011, 22:27

How could you not say that 11 men on the pitch for Arsenal would have made a difference? Instead of giving the ball away within 1 or 2 passes of retrieving it they'd have had an outlet and would have been able to create a few chances of their own rather than being forced to drop every player deep while Barca easily connected pass after pass after pass.

I'm not trying to say that I think Arsenal would have gone through had RVP not been sent off. Barca created plenty of chances before the red was shown.

Regarding the stats though- the number of shots and possession for Barca don't reflect the fact that Arsenal were never more than a goal away from winning the tie. Bendtner certainly is capable of finishing a chance like the one he got at the end. Sure he's not the most clinical finisher in the game but he's hardly the worst.
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Wanderer
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Post by Wanderer » 08 Mar 2011, 22:29

TommyGun wrote:
Wanderer wrote:
TommyGun wrote: No....didn't balance out anything. I'd rather allowed an offside goal and keep the 11th man. The call was completely subjective, so consider it a gift.

Do you know how many shots came after the sending off? Exactly.

Fabregas's backheel made me want to rage so hard. If Bendtner puts in that last chance, we aren't even having this conversation. That's how close the tie was...so gtfo with that "Barca winning as usual" bs.
lol at Arsenal fans gettin so wind up. If you really wanna get into detail, if Barca hadnt had 2 bad decisions gone against them in the first leg, it would have been 3-2. Add to that the first half non penalty and Barca would be 4-2 up. You really think 11 men Arsenal wouldve made a diff?

Arsenal fans were all over the place after the first leg sayin that Barca shouldnt make any excuses and sh*t happens and blah blah blah. Well, karma for Arsenal, sh*t happens. And the yellow might have been harsh, but if Van Persie wasnt bein a tit in slappin Alves he wouldnt hav been sent off, so only has himself to blame.

As for Bendtner missing chances. That's in Arsenals blood. Watch Birmingham game, or even Sunderland game for recent examples.
I said it before and I'll say it again, take the goal but give us back our 11th. Then let's play the last 24 mins + extra. You remember the score at the 56', right?

lol at you trying to wind me up over some sh*t that has nothing to do with this game. Again, we wouldn't even have this conversation if that chance is converted. We didn't have to win the game, just match the performance on the score sheet allowing for the away goal.
Nah my last point was that..dont bring unconverted chances up as excuses. Barca had plenty of unconverted chances in the first leg, and in the first half. Arsenal had a few in the first leg..But its all a matter of could hav should hav would hav..so unconverted chances really count for nothing.

Also my first point was that..It wasnt just a goal..If all ref decisions were perfect, it would have been 3 extra goals for Barca on agg(Includin the two in the first leg). Arsenal havin 11 men wouldnt hav made a diff.

Arsenal couldnt master a shot on target in the first 52 mins with 11 men..What makes ya think they could in the remaining 40 mins? They got completely dominated by Barca even before the red. So can hav no complaints.

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Post by ajc » 08 Mar 2011, 22:37

I don't think it's unnatural for a fan of any team to have a bit of a complaint against the referee when a red card is given out in that fashion...

You are probably correct that had the referee gotten every decision in the tie completely correct the adjustments would have favored Barca overall- but Arsenal were always going to need a bit of luck to advance from this tie, and until that shocking sending off it seemed like they might have just had enough. I would agree that Arsenal fans shouldn't think that the officiating was the reason Barca won the tie, but I don't think it's wrong to be frustrated that RVP was shown such a soft second yellow.
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shahensha
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Post by shahensha » 08 Mar 2011, 22:39

I dont really want to go into nitpicking little details but I must admit that RVP didnt deserve the second yellow at all.
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TommyGun
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Post by TommyGun » 08 Mar 2011, 22:48

Wanderer wrote:
TommyGun wrote:
Wanderer wrote: lol at Arsenal fans gettin so wind up. If you really wanna get into detail, if Barca hadnt had 2 bad decisions gone against them in the first leg, it would have been 3-2. Add to that the first half non penalty and Barca would be 4-2 up. You really think 11 men Arsenal wouldve made a diff?

Arsenal fans were all over the place after the first leg sayin that Barca shouldnt make any excuses and sh*t happens and blah blah blah. Well, karma for Arsenal, sh*t happens. And the yellow might have been harsh, but if Van Persie wasnt bein a tit in slappin Alves he wouldnt hav been sent off, so only has himself to blame.

As for Bendtner missing chances. That's in Arsenals blood. Watch Birmingham game, or even Sunderland game for recent examples.
I said it before and I'll say it again, take the goal but give us back our 11th. Then let's play the last 24 mins + extra. You remember the score at the 56', right?

lol at you trying to wind me up over some sh*t that has nothing to do with this game. Again, we wouldn't even have this conversation if that chance is converted. We didn't have to win the game, just match the performance on the score sheet allowing for the away goal.
Nah my last point was that..dont bring unconverted chances up as excuses. Barca had plenty of unconverted chances in the first leg, and in the first half. Arsenal had a few in the first leg..But its all a matter of could hav should hav would hav..so unconverted chances really count for nothing.

Also my first point was that..It wasnt just a goal..If all ref decisions were perfect, it would have been 3 extra goals for Barca on agg(Includin the two in the first leg). Arsenal havin 11 men wouldnt hav made a diff.

Arsenal couldnt master a shot on target in the first 52 mins with 11 men..What makes ya think they could in the remaining 40 mins? They got completely dominated by Barca even before the red. So can hav no complaints.
That's fine, unconverted chances count for nothing. We stayed within a goal of advancing at all times. Act like you didn't tense up with that ball went to Bendtner. It's fine, I get it.

Did you think Arsenal had any chance last game at half? How about last year at Camp Nou? 2 late goals as it all seems impossible. Again, the overall goal wasn't to win, but to just match step-for-step. The WS injury made us burn a sub early which did hurt later for a tactical situation. Diaby for Chamakh would have been the next step. Chasing the game with 11 is a tough task, but chasing the game with 10 is mission impossible against them. Inter even lost on 10 last year, even though they went through.
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Post by Wanderer » 08 Mar 2011, 23:00

TommyGun wrote:
Wanderer wrote:
TommyGun wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again, take the goal but give us back our 11th. Then let's play the last 24 mins + extra. You remember the score at the 56', right?

lol at you trying to wind me up over some sh*t that has nothing to do with this game. Again, we wouldn't even have this conversation if that chance is converted. We didn't have to win the game, just match the performance on the score sheet allowing for the away goal.
Nah my last point was that..dont bring unconverted chances up as excuses. Barca had plenty of unconverted chances in the first leg, and in the first half. Arsenal had a few in the first leg..But its all a matter of could hav should hav would hav..so unconverted chances really count for nothing.

Also my first point was that..It wasnt just a goal..If all ref decisions were perfect, it would have been 3 extra goals for Barca on agg(Includin the two in the first leg). Arsenal havin 11 men wouldnt hav made a diff.

Arsenal couldnt master a shot on target in the first 52 mins with 11 men..What makes ya think they could in the remaining 40 mins? They got completely dominated by Barca even before the red. So can hav no complaints.
That's fine, unconverted chances count for nothing. We stayed within a goal of advancing at all times. Act like you didn't tense up with that ball went to Bendtner. It's fine, I get it.

Did you think Arsenal had any chance last game at half? How about last year at Camp Nou? 2 late goals as it all seems impossible. Again, the overall goal wasn't to win, but to just match step-for-step. The WS injury made us burn a sub early which did hurt later for a tactical situation. Diaby for Chamakh would have been the next step. Chasing the game with 11 is a tough task, but chasing the game with 10 is mission impossible against them. Inter even lost on 10 last year, even though they went through.
Point is lets say we live in a ideal world. Ref dont make mistakes. The situation would be: Barca 4-2 up against 11 men Arsenal with 40mins left. Arsenal have been totally dominated in the past 50 minutes, and hav not been able to get a shot in.

Reckon odds of them goin tru at that moment would still hav been as poor as what happened in real life.

Im not sure which 2 late goals you're sayin, but both double goals that Arsenal scored against Barca came at Emirates stadium. Barca havent concede more than one at the Camp Nou for a long time.

p.s. I dunno whether Chamakh would have made a diff, but Almunia certainly kept Arsenal in the game with more than a few saves.

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 08 Mar 2011, 23:12

1. Van Persie shouldn't have been sent off for that offence. However he may have been sent off by another referee for his first yellow, and early on in the game he went studs up high on Messi and connected, and didn't receive any punishment. I'm not justifying the refs decision, but i'm trying to say these things balance themselves out over time.

2. Barcelona has so many chances which they should have scored, merit to Almunia for having such a great game, but if the situation was not what it was, Barcelona would have been much more clinical in front of goal.

3. Arsenal going down to 10 men actually benefitted them, instead of passing once or twice, giving the ball to RVP, they had no forward option, so they never got a chance to go forward, this resulted in the sort of defensive situation Barcelona faced against inter milan last year, when they faced 10 defenders behind the ball.

4. Barca should have had a penalty early on. I can't believe the ref didn't give it as it was more of a foul than the actual penalty imo. Both were penalties regardless.

5. Yes if bentner had been more technical, controlled the ball and finished Arsenal would have scored. But you could say if Barcelona's attackers were more technical and finished better they would have scored 8 or more, so that "what if" point is fairly void.

6. Even if Bentner did score, Barcelona were toying with Arsenal for the rest of the game after that chance, if he had scored and were facing defeat, you would have seen a very different Barcelona side, which would have probably gone on to score even more than one against an already crippled Arsenal.

7. Arsenal had 0 attempts with RVP on the pitch for 45 min, 0 attempts with him off the pitch. IMO he made no difference to the game, and as stated above, the removal of a front man probably worked in Arsenals favour as they just went defensive.

8. Besides the Bentner chance, Arsenal created nothing. Barca however were creating one on one situations for fun at one point.

I'm very inclined to be biased, as I'm absolutely overjoyed that Barca went through, but even the English commentators afterwards said that the best team won, and they were the best team by a very long margin, and although RVP's sending off was criminal, it would have been more of a steal if Arsenal went through.

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Post by TommyGun » 08 Mar 2011, 23:17

Wanderer wrote: Point is lets say we live in a ideal world. Ref dont make mistakes. The situation would be: Barca 4-2 up against 11 men Arsenal with 40mins left. Arsenal have been totally dominated in the past 50 minutes, and hav not been able to get a shot in.

Reckon odds of them goin tru at that moment would still hav been as poor as what happened in real life.

Im not sure which 2 late goals you're sayin, but both double goals that Arsenal scored against Barca came at Emirates stadium. Barca havent concede more than one at the Camp Nou for a long time.

p.s. I dunno whether Chamakh would have made a diff, but Almunia certainly kept Arsenal in the game with more than a few saves.
We don't live in a world without ref mistakes so that's irrelevant. You were hard done by in the 1st leg, and we were hard done by in the 2nd leg. My bad, typing so fast I included Walcott's home goal last year in all that mess. I did say a couple pages back it wouldn't be the same situation as last year, and I'll still stick to that. As an Arsenal supporter, I know how deceptive possession stats can be. I also know that the sending off didn't help swing the possession in our favor in any shape or form, which didn't help our result.

Almunia had to step up because there was no one else. WS could be out for the rest of the season so we'll just have to wait for the scan. Considering no one gave us a chance(including myself when I heard of the injuries), we kept it close with 10 men.
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 08 Mar 2011, 23:28

Urgh, i hate how so many people seem to think the sending off changed anything. Arsenal could have had 12 players on the pitch, they still weren't going to win the way both teams were playing. I'm not saying Arsenal were bad, but they were totally outclassed by Barcelona, and Barca deserve credit for that, even if the ref had a shocker.

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Post by ScottyBoy » 08 Mar 2011, 23:46

Its a good point Arsenal were better off with 10 men.

The next point is strange but perhaps true.

Yes Arsenal were 11v11 in a "winning" position but what would you count on more, what position would you rather be in.

1. Attemt to play out 35 minutes 11v11 without conceding to a dominant Barca.

or

2. Be in a position with 10 men where the ball falls to your striker where if he scores the tie is over.

In situation 2 the tie is easier to win for Arsenal in my view.
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Post by TommyGun » 09 Mar 2011, 00:24

klc123 wrote:Urgh, i hate how so many people seem to think the sending off changed anything. Arsenal could have had 12 players on the pitch, they still weren't going to win the way both teams were playing. I'm not saying Arsenal were bad, but they were totally outclassed by Barcelona, and Barca deserve credit for that, even if the ref had a shocker.
I just don't see how you think having 1 LESS player in an advanced position of RvP's quality helps Arsenal. I mean, you could argue positioning but there's no potential outlet when the sole striker is absent. When you don't have a striker to hold up play in order for others to get forward from their pressing positions, how do you suggest an attack other than hoof and pray? I've never heard anyone that would rather have 10 vs. 11 against Barca so you, sir, are a pioneer.

If you think we performed any better after he was sent off...I just don't know how to tell you we didn't without just looking at the game. We were 1-1 at the time...even without a shot on goal. Any consideration of the physiological effect having a soft second yellow has on a squad? I think you'd be far less cavalier in your analysis if we didn't have the goal advantage at the time of sending off. We were dominated pre-red because we didn't HAVE to take the game to them in order to advance. We picked up a few early yellows so we had to be a little more reserved on defending + Almunia was going to be a question mark after last year's performance. To sum it all up, if something bad could happen...it did.
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 09 Mar 2011, 00:48

I agree with Tommygun, 1 less player, is 1 less player and it makes a huge difference.. More so agianst barca, where you have to chase the ball and pressure them for 65% of the match which is a tiring task that can make most men puke..

But to be fair Arsenal weren't creating many chances, I think 0 shots on goal in the whole match and Busquets had to score for Arsenal cause the gunners couldn't penetrate the blau-grana net....

Bendtners "chance" wasn't a chance thanks to Mascherano who is a beast of nature, a total crack, he is the best in the world in his position, he didn't even push it out to the coner, he slid and controlled the ball with perfect timing, saving the day..

You want to talk about chances, talk about Villa's multiple 1 v 1's vs Almunia, Messi's multiple efforts saved by Almunia, Dani Alves horrific shot, Adriano's posts, actual shots on goal, not some type of breakaway that didn't even result in a shot... Valdes was not tested....Barcelona had about 10 sitters in this match.. Those are chances, Bendtners situation was nothing more than a breakaway stopped by the best defensive midfield in the world..If he had shot, and Valdes had saved it you could talk about a missed chance, but that wasn't the case gunners.

Barcelona played total football, this is the best team in the world, Arsenal manned-up to the challenge but where out-played.. I want to put bethoven music on when I see this team played, wall passes, through balls, switches, and dozens of chances per game, beautiful attacking football.. Don't have time to blink an eye, always entertained by the attractive football and the tiki-taka...Some teams can play attractive football but can't win, others play ugly football and win, this team plays attractive attacking football and dominate every single rival... :arrow: Dream team
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Post by matt » 09 Mar 2011, 02:08

Whilst I don't think that going down to ten men gave Arsenal any advantage, or resulted in a better performance from that point onwards, when Van Persie made the fateful shot that got him sent off, it was pretty much the first time he had touched the ball. Arsenal had zero shots for the entire game, and we can only wonder if Van Persie would have scored the chance Bendtner wasted at the end. Given that Van Persie is usually totally left-footed it is hard to say.

The better team won, but the sending off was ludicrous. End of story.
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