El Clasico, 4/10/10

Discussion about European club leagues, Champions League and anything in UEFA

Who will win?

Poll ended at 11 Apr 2010, 16:26

Real Madrid
2
22%
Barcelona
2
22%
Evan is sexy
5
56%
 
Total votes: 9

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 13 Apr 2010, 09:14

I agree with you.

It's like with Ronaldo, Portugal in my opinion play a very similar style of football to Manchester United and Real Madrid, real fast paced counter attacking football. That's why he has been so successful with his national side (yes I know he hasn't won anything, but that is not Ronaldo's personal fault.)

I think if Messi adapts to playing with Argentina he will absolutely dominate.

Hopefully that won't happen before Wayne Rooney dominates with England 8)

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Post by shahensha » 13 Apr 2010, 09:55

2brown347 wrote:I'm not going to deny that Xavi is the king of the mid field in soccer today, but I also think people give him too much credit for what Messi does. This is strictly because Messi still produces 2-3 goal performances without Xavi. I'd almost say Xavi needs Messi more than Messi needs Xavi because without Messi he'd just be a mid who completes a lot of passes that don't result in much.

IMO the reason that Messi isn't as good for his nation:
1) It's hard to produce the quality show when you have a different cast every shoot.
2) He doesn't play the style of football that Barca which is a style that fits him like a glove.
3) He really hasn't been as bad as people make it out to be, but since he's been so good with his club he'll get that extra judgement.

Heck it even took Ronaldo a little while before he started dominating for Brazil
Speaking of whom. Apparently Messi is only 8 goals away from breaking Ronaldo's tally of goals scored in a season by a Barcelona player. How fitting that an argentinian is poised to break a brazillian's legend.

Anyways, I whole-heartedly agree. Hopefully it all changes in South Africa. Messi was visited by Maradona before his 3-0 show against valencia, offering him advice to avoid personal demons (lol yeah right) and definitely discussing the gameplan for the world cup.
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2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 » 13 Apr 2010, 15:13

Personally I like to imagine Maradona is actually a good guy and likes to give Messi advice on what mistakes not to make... you could say I'm a dreamer.

He's only 6 goals away from c. ronaldo's epl record I believe aswell. I think both are possible with the games they have left to play but I'm not gonna say it'll happen.

Pele talking about Messi and espn trying to make it more dramtic than what it is. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/ ... 901&ver=us

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 13 Apr 2010, 16:06

God I can't stand ESPN...

And that's pretty confusing because Pele himself said before that George Best was the greatest player in history, and he certainly did not score 1000 goals lol.

I don't think anyone will ever score 1000 goals in their career again, especially goals of the calibre Pele scored.

He's right though, I don't think its right to compare players who are still playing against players who are no longer playing, especially players as young as Messi who have still got a whole career ahead of them. When it comes to judgement day, we can say who is the greatest ever, but until that day, I think everyone should just love and appreciate the wonderful magic and excitement that these players bring us while they still can.

panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 13 Apr 2010, 18:07

In my opinion Xavi is good any where he plays, and he's the one that makes the strikers in his team shine... Look at Messi, how many assists has he received from Xavi?? Same with his national team, many of his passes end up in 1 on 1 options for his strikers, and UEFA recognized this by giving him the 2008 player of the European Finals award..

Unlike Messi, that is the best player of the world, but take Xavi away, and he would still be good but not as great.. Hint : Argentina's Messi... Having a player with the vision and precision of Xavi, that can make 4 assists per game easily, makes every striker look excellent, and is a strikers best friend...

Xavi carries Barcelona and Spain, and assists all the strikers, and Messi doesn't score 2-3 goals with Argentina, basically cause he doesn't have that sniper that is xavi to put him 1 v 1 against the keep..

I don't want to take credit of Messi, granted many of his goals he takes on 2-3 guys and scores alone, but without Xavi, I believe Messi's and barcelona's goals would be much less...
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 13 Apr 2010, 18:32

The ball through by Xavi for Messi against Real Madrid was not superb in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, it was a good ball and the vision was good, but it wasn't superb, Messi made it look like a superb ball by taking it past a defender and controlling it in one touch before finishing it calmly. Many players would not have scored on that occasion, many might not have even got a shot off.

And again, yes strikers love playing with a playing like Xavi because he is capable of putting in a perfect killer pass, but at the same time Xavi loves playing with quality strikers because they make the runs and position themselves for him to put the killer pass into which in turn also makes him look brilliant.

Long story short, both strikers and play makers rely on each other to win games. Notice how I said win games and not look good? Xavi and Messi don't give a sh*t about looking like the best players in the world, Messi wasn't celebrating that he scored a fantastic goal in the Clasico, and Xavi wasn't celebrating that his excellent ball resulted in a goal making him look good, all that both of them cared about was the 1-0 on the score sheet and winning the game and going ahead in the league.

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Post by bsc » 13 Apr 2010, 20:58

The ball Xavi played to Pedro sure seemed superb to me.

Xavi gettiing old makes me nervous, it just seemed destined to me for Fabregas to slot in with Iniesta (for the National Team too) when Xavi runs out of steam. I hope Xavi is this class for years to come.
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 13 Apr 2010, 21:48

Both seem superb, and the fact that just 40 minutes later, Xavi repeated the same type of pass, and Messi missed it, confirms for me that his first pass was perfect, and that that was exactly what he was trying to doo...

I strongly belive no one passes like him, and that he makes his strikers look amazing, with his ability to put them 1 v 1 many times during the game... He alone created 4 perfect passes that easily could have been goals, but that his strikers couldn't resolve.. So we don't even have to leave it for interpretation, we know Xavi can leave you alone 1 v 1, and we know that he does it so much, that sometimes his strikers can't keep up.. Messi missed 2 alone with the keeper that were Xavi's passes...

Again, Messi is awesome, but without Xavi he isn't the machine we are used too.
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2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 » 13 Apr 2010, 22:47

By your logic though Panchester Messi wouldn't have those multi goal games for Barca even without Xavi, but he does. I'd say he needs a stable team which Argentina doesn't provide him.

panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 14 Apr 2010, 00:06

I think its unfair JUST to blame it on the whole other 10 men and not a bit on Messi.. To be fair, Argentina is very disorganized, not because they don't have world class players, but because their managers is a jackass..

Also, many goals Messi dribbles through 3-4 players and scores "singlehandledly" (we like that word here on EF, dont we :D), why can't he do that with Argentina, is the grass different ??

To my friend KLC:
Xavi is consistent whereever he is, be it Spain, Barcelona or Catalunya, he creates the chances his strikers need to score plenty of goals, he is the one that makes his strikers look awesome, I mean he puts them on 1 on 1 positions vs the keeper atleast 2 per game, if strikers miss that, then they are bad striker period, if they score, they are solely doing their job and what is expected of them... The pass is an excellent pass weather the striker finishes it or not, so Messi, Pedro, Zlatan, Torres, Villa or anyone finishing it doesn't make Xavi look better at all, the world already knows he can channel the ball between 2-3 defenders 90% of the time.. So either every striker on those 3 teams I mentioned is ridiculously outstanding world class simply the best, or Xavi makes them look good by feeding them balls where they simply have to push it and finish...

--
And that pele comment is ridiculous...
First, he doesn't determine who is legend and who isnt? Who made him the "legend determiner" ...

And, Second, Fifa doesn't recognize HIS OWN 1000+ goals, specially cause they where scored against team like Atletico Caipirinha Sur, teams that no one knows that play like in 9th division... In season 1959, he scored 120+ goals in the Brazilian championship, I mean common gimme a break, the bests nowadays struggle to score 40, who was this guy playing, against wheelchaired people?? Pele was a dude that had a great team on his side all the time, he had a team full of stars be it in Santos or Brazil, if you look at the stats, you could determine it wasn't even him that scored the most, or did the most for Brazil, it was just that he was in all three that people want to immortalize him...

Maradona on the other hand, played with 10 "corpses" and won things in Europe, the UEFA cup, two scudetto's and the whole world knows HE did it alone.. Also, the 1986 world cup was marked, because Maradona was the only good one on the Argentinian side, the rest where okay players, he carried the team, he lead the team, he won that world cup for em...

Pele = good player, with a lot of ????? to his career that we don't know
Maradona = the best..

Pele didin't score all those goals against top competition like Maradona did, and even if he did, he did it in a time where it was common to score 8 goals per game... Where people with huge belly's could play football against profesional sides, etc.. Last, if he would have actually "LEAD" brazil to the WC titles, if he actually would have scored those goals, who the fudge does he think he is to make comments like that... He just needs to learn when to shut his mouth..
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soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 14 Apr 2010, 03:26

Panchester you should watch Pele play and also look up some stuff about the era in which he played in.
In those times, very few players moved from Brazil to Europe so the Brazil league could've potentially been the best league in the world. Almost all (I think maybe even all) of the players on the Brazil squad in his time came from Brazil, not a European league.
You're also forgetting that he didn't just play against Brazilian teams but his Santos team toured all over the world, including Europe which is held in such high regard. In 1959, in 5 games against what would be considered Europe's elite he scored 9 goals, including 4 against Inter Milan and 2 against Barcelona. He continued to tour around Europe with Santos for the remainder of his career with goal tallies similar to the ones I mentioned before. There would also be stretches where he would have to play like 5 games in 7 days or something so he wasn't exactly fresh when he played against top European teams and he still produced.

Oh and btw, in terms of goals scored in the world cup
Pele: 12 goals
Maradona: 8 goals


What questions do you have about his career? I'll try to answer them.
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2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 » 14 Apr 2010, 03:32

I'm on soccer11's boat, he wasn't even allowed to leave his country until late in his career to play in another nation. Also he was playing in a time where more players were trying to break his legs than defend him which is something no player deals with today.

I can get not thinking he's the greatest ever, but you have to give him the respect he deserves.

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 14 Apr 2010, 12:49

Pele done it against whoever he played against or with, whether it was the shittest team in the world or the greatest. He also never needed to cheat to win games. :wink:

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Post by panchester07 » 14 Apr 2010, 16:44

Haha, I don't need to get in this debate again, it has proven to have no right or wrong answer, or an end to it..

If we can agree on something is that they were either 1 or 2 of the world... So

1) Maradona
2) Pele

1) Pele
2) Maradona..


We can also agree it wasn't George Best, or Ole Gunnar Solksjaer ;)

And funny you mention cheating, when your favorite player seems to dive, and whine every weekend.. Not to mention he kicks players and elbows them, and lastly don't forget what he did to Rooney in the 2006 world cup...

Maradona did it once, Ronaldo does it consistently.. Show me a player nowadays that doesn't pull a shirt, use his hands here or there, kicks players, talks sh*t, spits, I mean, its ugly, but its almost part of the game, don't come with that "I'm so pure" attitude .. Everybody does it, I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I just learn to live wit it. .

It annoys me that just cause he did it against England, people look for excuses to criticize his game, when many english players are cheating, themselves..

If I can admit Pele, a player that scored 120 goals in 1 league season, is either 1 or 2 of the world, English people have to admit Maradona raped them nice and good, and that he is also 1 or 2..
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 14 Apr 2010, 17:08

Panchester, might I ask what you think the worlds best player means?

Do you think it is what the player has achieved? so the player who has achieved the most and best things is the better player?

Fifa do their rankings based on this, that is why Pele is number one, he won everything he could so many times it's unreal.

In terms of playing style, and the magical things players done, I agree, I think Maradona done things that not even Pele could do. But if your judging the best striker as the player who done the most unbelievable things, then Maradona is ahead of Pele, but George Best is ahead of all the them. This is because he was basically a faster Maradona with two feet and possibly even more flair.

Talk about players winning games single handedly, if you want to see a game been won 100% by one player, watch George Best v Benfica in the 1968 European Cup Final, that was utter and pure dominance of a football match. Not only did he one or two things which won the team the match, but every single time he got the ball he was single handedly destroying what was one of the best teams in the world at the time, known as the real madrid of that time period.

Not taking anything away from Maradona, because he obviously done unbelievable things that will never be repeated, but George Best done it every time he got the ball near enough. And don't bring in the argument of the defenders not been as good as they were when Maradona played, because no the defenders may not have been in as good condition, but football was A LOT harder back then than it was at even Maradonas time, the pitches were terrible, the balls weighed close to a tonne and defenders were practically allowed to snap players legs off and get away with it.

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