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Discussion about European club leagues, Champions League and anything in UEFA
nick117
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Post by nick117 »

ronaldo has also missed a ton of games from suspensions and injury he was gone for what 4 weeks in the beginning.
shahensha
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Post by shahensha »

uh-huh, Cronaldo has 11 goals in 13 games, Messi has 16 goals in 19 games. Their goals scored per game ratio is roughly the same ( 0.8 )

However Messi has way more assists than Cronaldo. In a sense he brings more to the game, espceially things that count.
2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 »

For the reason Hen pointed out is why I believe Messi is the best player currently. There is more to the game than just scoring, and assist is a huge part of that. Last year the only real criticism people were giving Messi is that he could never give as many assist as Xavi... well he's fixed that.
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

This season all tournaments

Messi
Appearances - 31
Goals - 21
Assists - 8

Ronaldo
Apperances - 17
Goals - 17
Assists - 1

I don't know how you worked that out as the same ratio.

Heres an interesting fact, Messi has only had 10 more shots on target than Ronaldo, whilest he has played 14 more games. They have the same number of shots off target but this is irrelevant considering how much more often ronaldo actually hits the target.

Im sorry, but Ronaldo is leagues ahead of Messi in my opinion and the statistics say it all.

Ronaldo is in a new team, trying to settle from moving, in a completely new team thats been switched around, and has also been combatting injury. Yet he is still at a much higher goals per game average and hits the target a hell of a lot more than Messi.

Messi only has 7 more assists, but if you counted all the times that Ronaldo had a shot on target that resulted in a Real madrid goal from another player, its a completely different story and Ronaldo hits the target more than Messi.

Messi on the other hand is completely settled in supposedly the "best team of the decade" with players who he has been playing with for long periods of time and is still miles behind Ronaldo in terms of shots on goal and goals scored.

If you want to drag assists into it, fine, go for it, but 7 more assists isn't alot considering he scores alot less than ronaldo and has played a hell of a lot more matchs.

I would be shocked if Ronaldo didn't win Ballon d'or over Messi next time.

On the international stage, Ronaldo scored more goals for his country last season than Messi has scored for argentina in his whole career.

Just saw browns post. Are comparing Messi's 8 assists this year to xavi's 31 of last year? :shock:

EDIT:

Id also like to point out that ronaldo scored 6 goals in 4 games in Europe, the highest stage of world football, Messi got 2 in five with no assists.
Last edited by klc123 on 16 Feb 2010, 02:36, edited 1 time in total.
2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 »

Not comparing anything from last year. Las year is over, done, this year Messi has more. Also Hen was talking in league, not all competitions.

In the league CR has 11 goals and 1 assist in 13 games, he also has more reds than assist.

In the league Messi 16 goals and 8 assist in 19 games.

Hell I'd say Zlatan is more impressive than CR with 12 goals and 5 assist in 19 games.

Really all the case for CR is that he can score goals and knows a bunch of tricks. If you REALLY want to say he contributes more to a team than Messi, or even most of RM starting 11 than thats your opinion. IMO he is great at scoring goals, but I can find players better at scoring goals who will also give more over all to a team.

In the NBA why do people say the Akron Hammer is the best? (some argue Kobe, Wade, etc not important) Because he does everything, he shots from distance, dunks, assist helps defend, etc.

In the NFL why do people say Manning is the best? (once again some people say Brady, etc.) Because he does everything well. He knows when to run, when to pass, everything.

The point being that everyone is going to have a "best" in their opinion, but people like to see players who will and can do anything. CR can score goals, but thats really all he contributes IMO other than shirt sales.

Messi is also a few years younger than CR.
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

No messi has 8 assists for barcelona this season :roll:

Yes he may have been talking about the league but im talking about world football and how can you be the best player in the world if you are only the best player in your league?

Ronaldo is the best overall player in the world for all competitions unquestionably. Internationally he is also the best in my opinion. Messi is below average for his country. If he is so brilliant and the best player in the world, why is it he cannot even perform for his country? Why cannot he perform in the champions league, which happens to be the biggest and best footballing stage in the world. Ronaldo can but apparently messi is better than ronaldo so how does that work out?

The worlds best player has nothing to do with red cards. Roy Keane was the best midfielder in the world in my opinion but he had more redcards than every player in the league put together.

If you can find a winger who scores in both internation games and in every competition 1 goal per game you will be a very rich man because as of now there is only one and thats why he is worth £80 million.

Your arugment is that the best player does everything, well in my opinion the only thing Messi can do better than anyone else is dribble. Admitely, he is fantastic at that, but everything else he does, there are people that do it much better. He isn't that fast, he isn't strong, he can't jump up and win the ball, he only headers free headers, he isn't that good at scoring free headers, he cannot shoot from distance very well, he cannot shoot with both feet very well and he cannot beat a goal keeper in a one on one every single time consistantly. He is an ok penalty taker but there are much better, he cannot take freekicks.

Ronaldo can dribble. Hes one of the fastest players in the world. He can do tricks. He can pass the ball very well, he just rarely does so. He can shoot from distance, with both feet better than anyone else in the world. He can take freekicks, one of the best if not thee best in the world. He can jump up and head the ball even against strong defenders, and scores lots of headers. He also has a good eye for goal he scores more than most out and out strikers when he is a winger. Finally he never misses one on one situations, hes also more consistant than Messi and is always involved in the game whereas messi sometimes seems to dissapear off the planet.

Saying Messi is a few years younger is a faded argument. When Ronaldo was Messi's age he was twice as good as Messi is now. Ronaldo isn't playing the best football of his life by a long shot but he is still in my opinion easily the best player.

Obviously my opinion is going to be different to yours or the next guys, and i respect your opinion that Messi is better, because i too really like watching messi and think he is a brilliant player, but realistically i feel Ronaldo makes a bigger impact to his team, he creates lots of chances for his team in build up which doesn't go down as assists and of course he is the most prolific goalscorer around.

I would say messi was the best player in the world if he had the stats that he had as wel as 20 assists, but he doesn't hes a long way off getting 20 assists aswel.

Heres my final point for you to think about.

Lets say for an instance that a goal and an assist are of equal value, because both result in a goal for your team ok?

Messi has gotten 29 goals and assists in 31 appearances.

Ronaldo has gotten 18 goals and assists in 17 appearances.

I rest my case for who does more for the team.

Really it doesn't matter whether its a goal or an assist because they are interchangable and of equal value, so Ronaldo does more for Real madrid than Messi does for Barcelona, and going by your ruling that means that Ronaldo is the better player correct?
2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 »

So I typed a huge thing and my computer spased and I'm not going to type it all again, but just let it be known I disagree with almost all your points, exspecially about the CL and international play.

Also the whole "This season thing is immature and don't start with that sh*t". I might not have been "correct" but it's the way people talk and you damn well know it.

But onto your last point. 29 points in 31 apperances could be 32 points in 32 games and ronaldo could go all season with out scoring another goal, its a weak arguement aswell. I said goals aren't all that matters, but I didn't say goals and assist were all that did. Goals and assist are two stats that are comparible on paper. That doesn't mean they are all that is important, Essien of two years ago scored very few goals and CR had 42 or something but I'd of said Essien was better that season. Admittedly I should had said "Points don't make you the best player. As far as I'm concerned Messi is better at every aspect of the game except crying, diving, and bitching. Again it's my opinion.

What isn't my opinion is that Barca played Man U last year in the champions league final and Messi was the one who played better, and Messi was the one who scored the winning goal. He also has more international success than CR.
nick117
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Post by nick117 »

you can't argue with brown about ronaldo he hates the man more than any other player and makes it known when anyone might whisper his name.
2brown347
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Post by 2brown347 »

nick117 wrote:you can't argue with brown about ronaldo he hates the man more than any other player and makes it known when anyone might whisper his name.
Can't argue with this statement.
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

Ignorance is bliss.

So your judging them both on what might happen?

I just can't understand your argument.

So for a forward player whos job is to score goals for his team, if assists and goals and shots on target isn't what matter what does? Because i definitely wouldn't say Messi is a better player because hes made a few tackles this season..

And in terms of essien and ronaldo, if you think anyone is better than a midfielder who scores 42 goals and 8 assists in 45 games then you're either dreaming of players that don't exist or just completely blinded by your hate for Ronaldo which is an extremely sad and immature way to be. Even the people that hate him admitted he was the best in the world at that time, denying so is just insain.

And what do you mean saying "this season" is immature? A player is only as good as he is at the moment. If you wanna say "oh messi is better because he had a better season last year" then ill say "oh actually he isn't the best in that case, maradonna and pele still are because they were unbelievable many many years ago".

My point is that a player is rated on how good he is now, and at the moment its plain and simple that Ronaldo does more for his team than Messi does. Hes better than him in every single catorgy, goal resulting plays, consistency, shots on target.

What do you dissagree with about the CL and international play? Messi has done nothing in the champions league this season compared to Ronaldo. Full stop. We're not talking about last season when he scored in a champions league final, which wasn't the winning goal, they were already one up.

You cannot say a player is brilliant in europe just because he scored from a severe defensive mistake against a very off form team. Besides, if you wanna say messi is better because he done that last season, ill say ronaldo is one step ahead because he scored a header to put manchester united one nill up 2 years ago and that was a proper header that took skill and wasn't a defensive mistake.

In terms on international play, Messi has achieved nothing. Ronaldo on the other hand has had 1 euro 2004 semi final, 1 world cup semi final and again, gets many more assists and goals for his country than Messi has.

Considering they are both forwards and a forwards job is to create goals, Messi does his job poorly only ever scoring 12 goals in his whole career for argentina whereas Ronaldo scored more for portugal last season alone...

If you wanna say "ohh it doesn't matter, messi runs around more for the team and uses more energy" then fine, but the fact is for one he doesn't, and secondly running around isn't getting your team any goals which is a forwards job to do. Fair play to messi if he makes a few tackles, but it doesn't make him a much better player than ronaldo because he doesn't do his job firstly which is to create goals. Saying otherwise is like saying im the best player in the world because im a better tiddly-winks player than both of them, it just doesn't work that way. Players are rated on what the're job is to do in the team and Ronaldo does his job for his team much much better than Messi does.
soccerjj
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Post by soccerjj »

You cannot say a player is brilliant in europe just because he scored from a severe defensive mistake against a very off form team..
And was also the top scorer in the champions league last season. With 9 goals compared to ronaldos 4. and also the second highest number of assists with 5 compared to ronaldos 2.

You cant say messi isnt amazing in europe.

KLC where do you think messi is in the world player rankings? (1st, 2nd, 3rd etc)
shahensha
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Post by shahensha »

How does Cronaldo do more for his team than Messi, when Messi is providing both goals and assists?

Also Messi plays as part of a team, Cronaldo doesnt. There have been plenty of times I have seen Cronaldo, run and try to collect a pass that was meant for someone else.

Also your idea that cronaldo provides assist through rebounds is bulls**t speculation. The only time that happened was when he missed a penalty and someone slotted in the rebound. Guess what happened then? Cronaldo didnt celebrate for his team, he was sulking for missing the shot and Higuain had to ask him "wtf is wrong with you?!"

Cronaldo's passes arent great. Its funny how he will miss a pass and then bitch at his teammates for not making that impossible extra leap to collect it.

Cronaldo doesnt bring more to the team, he thinks he is the team and prefers to do things on his own (case in point, his low number of assists and high number of goals). Messi plays as part of a team.

Considering Messi is also a winger, he is not only getting goals, he is racking up assists too. Cronaldo is a winger who racks up goals. Who would a person normally chose? A one dimensional fellow or a two dimensional one?

Furthermore, Cronaldo reaching the semi-final of world cup and the final of euro 04 is not an acheivement. He still failed. There is no silverware to his name.

Messi has won Argentina the Under 20 World cup and the Olympics. By your logic, him helping Argentina reach the copa america final is an acheivement too.

Besides Cronaldo has more goals and assists than Messi because he is older and has had more national team experience than Messi. Its simple logic. He is the captain too. Cronaldo was a well established regular in 04. Messi really began his career for the senior national team in 07.

If you really want to compare them on the international scene. Might as well wait till world cup.
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

It has nothing to do with age. Ronaldo scored more in last season for portual alone than Messi has scored in his whole career. Thats a hell of a difference.

And as for one dimensonal player, would you call Ronaldo de lima a one dimesonal player? reguardless of how many goals he scores, thats all he really done, so does that make him not as good?

An assist is equal to a goal. It doesn't matter which one a player does, they both result in the team having a goal. If anything a goal would be more worthy than an assist because goals generally take alot more skill than an assist and when you look at C ronaldos goals thats obvious.

But for arguments sake lets say they are equal.

Ronaldo has 18 assists/goals in 17 appearances, Messi has 29 in 31 appearances. Theres no two ways around it and im not going to argue it again because its already crystal clear, Ronaldo benefits his team more than Messi and ultimately thats what you want from a player. Managers don't care if you hog the ball sometimes or don't always have the best attitude, as long as you are creating goals for your team and ultimately winning them matchs, wether this be scoring the goal directly or giving an assist.

And you can't say ronaldo is one dimensonal when his goals from set pieces, headers, long distance shots, dribbles and one on ones. If thats a one dimensonal striker then your perception of a good footballer are blurred and im fastinated at what u must think a bad footballer is.

THATS how Ronaldo DOES do MORE for his team than MESSI. He does the business and although he doesn't run around and win the ball, he wins the game by scoring himself and he does it alot more and alot more consistently than Messi ever has been.

We will see who is correct when Ronaldo wins the Ballon d'or this year.
panchester07
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Post by panchester07 »

Im not reading the whole thing but I disagree with an assist being equal to a goal..

A goal is more important, an assist can be a pass in the midfield, and then the striker beats 2-3 players and shoots and scores..

Sometimes, when goals are tap ins, or 1 on 1s, the assists where very important, and narrators go "That pass was half the goal" (cause it left the striker to just push it in"...

Whatever the way it is though, a goal is much more important than an assist..

Don't make up new rules for the game, its bigger than you.

Don't touch Ronaldo da Lima, he is immortall...

On the Ballon d'or, it probably depends on who wins the World Cup Final Right??

Its Been:
2006 Italy wins - Cannavaro wins the Ballon d'or..
2002 Brazil wins - Ronaldo wins the Ballon d'or..
1998 France wins - Zidane wins the Ballon d'or..

So it wont depend on their success With Madrid / Barca ... more will it depend on what they do with Portugal / Argentina ...

And to be honest.. none of them look like the candidates, maybe xavi or kaka I say.
Last edited by panchester07 on 16 Feb 2010, 14:25, edited 2 times in total.
ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy »

Those statistics mean nothing. Youve quite clearly shown messi has played more games, and ronaldo's "averages" are better.

If you want to use these stats to compare the players do it when Ronaldo has played as many games. ie. just to match Messi he must contribute 11 goals in his next 14 games. That is a big demand despite is current ratio.

That said anyone who compares two players or two teams purely on satatistics is a bit of an anorak in my opinion. The only people who can make a true judgement are those that follow spanish football. Ive not seen enough this season to cast a solid judgement and come to a conclusion, but I have seen both players play this season in various competitions and what I would say is ive the seen the good and the bad of both of them.

Ronaldo, Seen many goals and explosive runs that leave you in awe. Ive also seen him be a selfish **** and contribute nothing to a game.

Messi, Seen his brilliance, individually crafted and finish flowing moves of football. Ive also seen him "not turning up"

If I were to cast judgement on these two players the way I would put it would be... given the choice I think most managers in the world would take Messi in their team as I think he is more capable of influencing big games of football. He also brings more to a team in the sense that a manager can have more versatility in the way the team plays with messi rather than Ronaldo.

Logic behind this is that Ronaldo is somewhat "a one man show" pass it to him and he'll try to beat 2/3 players and score. Keep him quiet (easier said than done) he wont contribute much, Champions league final for example.

Wheras Messi will not only craft chances himself bring teammates into play. Even when he is not in the game he is still a threat because he can burst into life at any moment. Ronaldo on the other hand will tend to be uninterested and sulk.

This is obviously quite vauge, as of course Ronaldo does create chances and other things just perhaps not as much as messi. This is my basic view.
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