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peps1154
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Call me stupid if u want however I pity people who dont belive in god but want scientific proof of his existance. The bible is full of Miricles, even now a days Miricles happen. The Miricles are the proof of his existance. You hear every once in a while of statues of St.Mary and pictures of Jesus crying or bleeding (i hear of this all the time on tv or in the newspaper). When scientist come to investigate the happening they find the blood and tears are real. Then some of them try to explain it that maybe the statue is full of water or something in it is melting, in the end they just make guesses because u cannot explain scientificly a crying statue. Therfore that gives me proof that my religion is real. Some people ask for proof, it is right in front of them, yet they do not see it. Im not some crazy religious fanatic but I will pray for people like that because I dont want them to burn in hell next to killers and robbers.

P.S- Excuse my spelling, English is my second language.

Sputnik
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if you are referring to me peps im not an athiest as such. i believe in a god but not the bible or anything? if that makes sense. i believe there is a god but i also believe in big bang and evolution n sh*t. i dont pray or go to church or even talk to him, but whenever i read stuff like this i think 'yes science cant explain everything, god (or sum godlike thing) must have created everything'.

so meh, i just like arguing down ppl i guess :) and btw to the evolution is flawed post, i dont quite get your point :? evolution is not flawed. take bacteria. evolution before your eyes:

how evolution works: some things mutate and/or have different traits to their species buddies :) a change in environment kills the things that cant survive, and only the mutants or traited things dont die, then they breed and have resistant offspring. hence a new subspecies is formed.

thats very simple eh? eventually over millions of years big changes occur, and due to 'su=urvival of the fittest' and constant environmental change, things 'evolve'. sometimes people get idea from the word evolve. its not about 'believe' or not in evolution, that is just natural selection which over time makes bigger changes than people think.

back to bacteria, its literally been seen, some bacteria are beginning to become immune to our antibiotics and then the split and split asexually until the other nonresistant bacteria die and only the resistant bacteria are left and can still attack the body. this is a small example, but this happens in a matter of hours!

of course evolution cant explain 'the first life', which mustve been caused by god, but it MIGHT explain how humans MIGHTVE evolved... maybe? :roll:
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MikeTheMadKeeper
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Whoa whoa wait wait. Now i never said humans didn't evolve to ADAPT. Neanderthals(spelling?) had big noses to breath in hotter air during the ice age and during cold winters ect. Human's brains evolved to higher degrees of intelligence. That is for certain. But i don't think humans evolved from an ape. I find that to be impossible. Because personally, if we did evolve from an ape, than other apes should have evolved by now as well. Yes apes can do sign language and all that but we are not apes or animals. Apes have evolved to become smarter but i don't think that they evolved into us.

Besides, no one has ever been able to prove evolution anyway so i guess its all a matter of what you believe and personally i believe in that God created humans. Many do not belive the bible to be fact but i do. In the bible it states that humans have free will while animals have INSTINCT. Animals do not have free will.

The angel thing:

Angels do not have free will yes. When Lucifer betrayed God and was sent to hell, a third of all the angels in heaven went along with him. God then did not allow the angels free will. Satan was known as Lucifer and was an angel before being cast down to hell. He was the most beautiful angel in heaven. But, he became too ambitious and thought too much of himself and wanted to be God. So, God sent him and a third of all the other angels to who betrayed him down to hell.

Proof:

Look. Knowledge can ONLY be gained through experience. Until you have a spiritual experience with God, you cannot know what people like me or other Christians are talking about because you have no knowledge of it( I AM NOT CALLING ANYONE STUPID)

Evolution:

I do believe that humans have evolved to become smarter but not evolved from a different species. A species cannot just change from an ape to a human like that. Humans have i think most likely evolved to ADAPT to the changing enviroment which is why you see all different kinds of humans. Blacks for instance are black because in Africa, the heat and sun wouldn't do so well to a white person(this is not meant to be racist and if anyone taks it as such i am sorry). As for chinese, i do not know or indian. The big bang did occur but i think God caused it and he put all life in the universe.

MikeTheMadKeeper
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Just a little note here-

The reason that humans are not animals is that we have free will. Animals only have instinct. Animals do not have free will. Humans act with free will while animals do not. An animal will not just simply choose to jump off of a cliff like a lot people do to kill itself(Unless its possesed or something) And a mother whale or lion will not just simply choose to kill its cub( they call a cow for a whale i think) like a human would. I don't think that a human mother HAS to kill her children. An animal's instinct is to protect its young so that the species can continue. That is what seperates us from animals. Animals don't have free will. That is why we are not animals.

Sputnik
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i get you now. but what about my nans dog :) we choose to eat or not based on whether we are hungry or not. my nans dog does the same thing. if my nan gives it food but its not hungry, it will not INSTINCTIVELY take the food because food is available, it waits until its hungry then it chooses to eat.

i see in that example humans and animals as exactly the same. we may not eat for more complex reasons than my nans dogs, but i think we both choose nonetheless.
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J
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MikeTheMadKeeper wrote:Just a little note here-

The reason that humans are not animals is that we have free will. Animals only have instinct. Animals do not have free will. Humans act with free will while animals do not. An animal will not just simply choose to jump off of a cliff like a lot people do to kill itself(Unless its possesed or something) And a mother whale or lion will not just simply choose to kill its cub( they call a cow for a whale i think) like a human would. I don't think that a human mother HAS to kill her children. An animal's instinct is to protect its young so that the species can continue. That is what seperates us from animals. Animals don't have free will. That is why we are not animals.
So when a monkey rides a tricycle and does backflips or a drug dog sniffs out drugs, they are acting on instinct? Or is that a learned behavoir?

I totally disagree with you that humans are not animals. Just because our adaptation is our brain, doesn't mean we are not animals or that we are some 'god' like figure on this earth.

LeftySkills
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In my opinion, this is a highly debated topic and could go on for years but, not eternity cause Jesus will come back soon. Alot of the things happening today have actually been expected according to the bible (I could be wrong but Im pretty sure im not) it says in the Reavelations (the last book of the bible) that a huge battle will go on near Jerusilam (pardon the ball spelling, 14 here :x )
witch in my opinion is Iraq. Here is a more relieable quote I found """The next event that we will probably see is the attack upon Israel by a coalition of Arab and ex-Soviet states, as written over 2500 years ago by the prophet EZEKIEL (see chapters 38, and 39), who describes this attack and identifies these nations as: Gog of the land of Magog, of Rosh, Mesheck and Tubal, (this area corresponds to parts of the ex Soviet Union) - Persia, (Iran) - Cush, (Ethiopia) - Put, (Libya) - Gomer, (parts of eastern Turkey and Ukraine) - and the house of Togarmah, (southern Turkey). (This attack will probably be a retaliation against Israel's prior nuclear attack on Syria, in which Damascus will be obliterated)""" And yes Iam a Christian 8)
Soccer is fun ^_^ I play every day.

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MikeTheMadKeeper
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Yes Leftyskills thank you for posting that. But of course, not everyone is a Christian such as you and I and even less actually believe that the Rapture is going to happen. So even if people don't believe the bible is true, everything that was to happen has happened.

MikeTheMadKeeper
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A monkey will do it on instinct if it is told to do it over and over and over again. If the command to do it is "Backflip" or something, it will do it because it has learned it. I never see a trained animal NOT do something it is trained to do. And as for eating, a dog will eat on instinct because it is hungry. A human will not because people have starved themselves(fasting. or just to die or to prove a point).

Pretty much, if you give a starving person a plate of food, they can choose not to eat it. If you give a starving animal food, it will eat it.( unless it is sick or something).

And J, if you want to consider yourself an ape and an animal you can go right ahead. I don't think of humans as animals because we are not. And by the way, ANYTHING can't be taught something but when taught and trained, a drug dog will not just say , "No i don't want to sniff out drugs". Because as far as i know, when the dog is told to do it, it will do it. After being taught it so much, it BECOMES instinct when told to do it. If you play soccer long enough and do certain things long enough( Like a certain little move when someone tries to take the ball from you) it becomes instinct because you are so used to doing it you don't think about it. Only difference, you can choose to do something else than that but a dog can only drug sniff and has no choice in the matter. When it hears the command, it acts on instinct that, "Oh, the 'go on boy, find it' command means i gotta find some drugs, better get to it." Bad example but thats my point. J, if someone tells you, "J, go and attack that person!" You can choose not to based on morals or anything of that sort. A dog or animal trained to do it or born with it will do it on insinct.

J, you are right that it is a learned behavior but when is the last time you saw a drug dog NOT sniff for drugs when people told them to. If they had free will, they could choose not to and yet they listen ALL the time. Learning is not a sign of free will because as i said, if animals couldn't learn, they would be dead.
Last edited by MikeTheMadKeeper on 26 Aug 2006, 19:37, edited 2 times in total.

MikeTheMadKeeper
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Oh and i don't know what learning has to do with it J. If animals didn't learn from experience, then they would all die. A monkey learns to backflip on command from experience of constantly doing it to a point where it hears, "Backflip" or whatever, it does it on instinct. Also, why is it that every animal can be trained to do something? If you continue to make it do something it will do it on command. You train a human to fire a gun, he won't fire it if you tell him to. Also, someone on this thread said that humans have an instinct to survive i think. So what do you call suicide? MOST humans have the WILL to survive. Animals cleary do not. If someone on the thread didn't say about instinct to survive in humans then sorry i put this but that is for anyone that thinks so.

Also for lefty, in the bible it talks of a war going on for a thousand years or 2 thousand. Israel has been at war for 2000 years. After they betrayed God in Exodus with Moses, God gave them that punishment. And i know, if you look at the news, you'll see SOMETHING about the war in Israel. It's not Iraq, its Jerusalem in Israel.
Last edited by MikeTheMadKeeper on 26 Aug 2006, 21:08, edited 1 time in total.

floater
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so can u explain that if Lucifer was an angel and angels don't have free will how can lucifer betray God

in islam:
God creates Adam, God tells the creatures that are in heaven to bow down to Adam, Satan refuses bc he says he is better than man bc he is made of fire and man is made from clay, God exiles Satan and gives Satan until the Day of Judgement to persuade humans to come to the side of the devil
the interesting things is that when the devil is about to get exiled he promises God that he will make humans screwed over like, humans drinking alcohol, homosexuality, and etc.
many things that go on in the world today (this may sound weird) are from the influence of Satan from man
and know this Satan is very powerful in his ways
"In football, the greatest satisfaction is winning when they say you can't." - Robert Paul

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MikeTheMadKeeper
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What did i say before? Did you read the post? They don't have free will ANYMORE. The reason there is evil is because man has free will. I recently wrote a thesis on good and evil and i will most likely try to get it published. Pretty much, evil is here because God wants us to choose for ourselves.

And also, a lot of people say, "Why, if God loves us, would he let us go to hell?" The answer is simple. Why in the world would God make you suffer by being with him in heaven? If you don't want to talk to him here on Earth, or love him, or even believe in him, why would he give you the agony of spending eternity with him? This is very general but here you go: More or less, if you don't want to be with God, then go to hell. That is pretty much what that means. He knows that you will betray him, but he lets you make the choice. It shows that he allows man to have free will because he does not force you to love him or to go to heaven and be with him. You don't love him here on Earth and don't want him to be in your life on Earth, he won't give you the suffering and agonizing pain of being with him in heaven.

As for the Islam thing, what creatures in heaven are you talking about? Animals? Also, just to ask, are Islamic? Just to put this out, i am not trying to attack you anyone here.

Note- If i did not put that angels don't have free will anymore sorry. But that is what i meant. That is what makes us better than them. They are stronger than us, and faster, ect. But we are in favor with God and we have free will. Angels are God's SERVANTS while we are his children. He created both us yes, but Jesus was a man, not an angel and he died for US.

*~El Maestro~*
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No, the creatures he's talking about are angels. Floater got it right when he wrote his post. In the koran that's what they wrote. I'm not sure about what they wrote in the bible but thats how it goes in the koran. Everybody obeyed god(angels and other stuff) except for satan who thought he was better. So he was banned and he got his followers and promised to try to make us all evil.

floater
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good call El Maestro
i always thought that Satan was an angel bc of what it does say in the koran
the verse that describes that incident uses the word malaka- which means angels/ audience
i think that in that verse the meaning of audience was used bc in islam we believe that jins are made of fire, and so is Satan so that means he cant be an angel (islamic viewpoint)
it would take alot of knowledge of the quran and language of arabic to fully describe why, which i dont have that much
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MikeTheMadKeeper
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Well if the Quran is what you follow then go ahead but Lucifer did not want to bow down to GOD. The Quran has some similarities with christian views of God and the devil but also differences. If you are muslims then the Quran is what you follow and that is what you believe. I don't think that I am made out of clay. And by the way, people can be evil without the devil because we have free will and people choose to do evil. And also, why is it that only the muslims attacked the world trade center and do all of those terrorist acts and suicide bombings? Suicide is a sin. Do they think that good is coming out of doing those things? I am not muslim obviously so maybe you could tell me and i don't read the quran because that does not have my beliefs in it so maybe you would know. This isn't meant to be offensive by the way.

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