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Ronnie9
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[QUOTE=dtak]when god had kicked satan out of heaven, he was still in a differet level of heaven. he was more powerful that humans, but weaker than god and his angels. but, when 1914 came, god and his angels had fought against satan and his deamons, and had kicked them out of heaven for good, sending them to earth, not hell. that's why world war 1 had occured, satan had immediately begun to control the earth, while god waited for his faithful ones to continue being faithful. he gives strength to endure against satan, and he will reward the ones that do not give up.[/QUOTE]

What?? you saying that the so called satan had been on earth for only 104 years?? anyway that' not what Islam teaches us.

upandcoming
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First off the Trinity is a very confusing thing. God is the holy trinity as it says in the Bible. There are somethings that God never meant for humans to fully grasp and understand and this may be one of them. I will try to explain though. God went up on the Mountain before he was crucified to pray and talk to the father. Really all he was doing was praying for strenght so he could take dying on the cross. God had sent him self down in the form of a human but God was still also in heaven. God can be in all places at one time so it makes sense. Again sometimes you like just to spend time in Gods presents you do not have to ask for forgiveness or help every time you pray that is greedy. Yes you can ask God for help and forgiveness but you don't have to every time you pray to him.

You are right in saying God did not want anyone to ever have to live in eternal torture. That is why you have a choice whether or not you want to go to heaven or hell. If someone offers you a birthday present you have to choose to recieve and choose to open it if you never open the present and just keep it in the wrapping paper the present is useless. Same goes for heaven every one has a choice of excepting God and going to heaven but if you never except God you have made a choice to go to hell. Haven't you heard people say "One day I am going to die and have a eternal party in hell" they are mistaken it is not going to be a party but they want to go to hell. They do not care to go to heaven so God is not going to force them.

If God makes the earth paradise again and everyone who is on it now comes back down to earth how do you think the World is going to be perfect wouldn't it be exactly the same way it is now. We are by no means living in a paradise. All the sinful people that are on the earth now will just be on it again if this world becomes paradise. If every one comes back Hitler will be living here for goodness sakes.

What about all the sin before 1914 if the devil was really just sent down then. There were many terrible wars before that and what do you think was causing them?

As for Lazarus he was already in heaven. The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord so he was judged and found righteous and excepted into heaven before Jesus brought him back.

peps1154
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Ok now that a muslim is posting I will ask my question, this is for the muslims because I think its a good argument and I want to see the response.
The prophets before Jesus said that a son of god would come. If Jesus (who himself said he was god's son, something no prophets have done before) was just another propht who was God's son? You can't on one side belive in the prophets words and then on the other dispute them (assuming you don't belive there was a son of god).

zizou10-5
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k what Ronnie9 said was right, but only one thingk worong, Noah was not the 1st prophet but Adam was :wink: .oKAY DIS IS WHAT iSLAM HAS TO SAY ABout Satan. Staan is one of the jinn Allah created. After Allah created Adam, whow as the firts human being, Allah ordered all the angels to prostrate themselves b4 Adam for a sign of respect,Only Satan did not obey Allah, he was boastful and said' My lord, because you misled me, I will mke things on earth seem good to mankind and i will mislead hem all, every one of them. Satan who was exspelled out of the sight of Allah, asked ALLAH TO GIVE HIM TIME UNTIL THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT TO KEEP ALL MANKIND AWAY FROM ALL aLLAH'S PATH AND MISGUIDE THEM ALL. Therefore Staan is the greatest danger to a persons affterlife and therefore our greatest enemy. :)

dTak
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hey upandcoming, i would like to know where the facts you got are in the bible. i.e. which book, chapter, verse.

about the trinity, and about lazarus.

as for paradise on earth, satan will not be present no longer. so hitler would not appear again. there will be no violence and we will have eternal peace on earth. and as i mentioned before FAITHFUL ones will live in paradise on earth. and the people who did not get the CHANCE to learn about jehovah will get a second chance. i never mentioned that the whole world would live in paradise. the FAITHFUL and the ones that didn't GET THE CHANCE will get to live in paradise. Hitler obviously was not faithful, for he executed Jehovah's Witnesses.

"he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and eath will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore."-Revelation 21:4

"The lameone will climb up just as a stag does."-Isaiah 35:6

"THe eyes of the blind ones will be opened."-Isaiah 35:5

"All those in the memorial tombs will come out."-John 5:28,29

"No resident will say:'I am sick.'"-Isaiah 33:24

"There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth."-Psalm 72:16

these verses show the differences we deal with in this earth. where we are living is not considered paradise. we constantly suffer hunger, death, pain, and much more.

1914 is a big year because satan had come down to earth. yes there were many previous battles where much more people had died, than World war 1 and 2. but what makes world war 1 and 2 more significant is because the first war marked the greatest change in history. basically the significance is right in it's name. "World War" the whole world was included in the war, causing forever change in this world.

satan also caused other wars and battles before, but they weren't a war that caused changes that would cahnge the whole world. when satan had entered earth, the causes and effects were far greater

cfrealmadrid
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here are some flaws i see in the jehovah's witness religion. i know it's similar to christianity, but to say it's only a branch of it would be ignoring a lot of things that have to do with being a christian. anyway, here are the flaws i see:

1. if hell isn't real, what happens to people who've done evil things? you're saying that a vengeful god (quoted from the bible) would allow people like hitler, charles manson, richard ramirez, etc. to recieve the same level of treatment as a kind old lady who just didn't get "chosen"?

2. what's so significant about world war I? the name, at most. think of it this way: during the conquest of the roman empire, there were quite a few battles fought within a short period of time. i think that constitutes the term "war." at the time, europe, western asia, and parts of northern africa were essentially the world. this would constitute the term "world war." while not the official name, it was a world war by all definitions of the phrase. so why didn't satan come to earth then? why is world war I special? is it possible he's been here all along, since there have been plenty of evil things done since even before the roman empire?

3. could you explain the way it works when we die again? i'm not sure i got that all down. i understood what i read to mean that first, the 144,000 were chosen. when we die, we're sleeping. when god decides to end the world, we wake up. the 144,000 get to go to heaven. everyone who wasn't a dictator or murderer gets to come to earth and live again, and get a second chance to get to heaven, even if they weren't chosen, which effectively eliminates the need for the "chosen" in the first place. is that something like how it's supposed to go?

anyway, this is what i got from what i read. i'm not making things up here, this is how i took your argument.
Hala Galacticos

dTak
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well this is not arguement, i'm just trying to explain what we believe.

so about hell and death. the 'chosen' ones are the 144,000. the rest of the 'faithful' ones will live in paradise earth. the people who did not get the chance to 'get to know his (Jehovah) name will be given a second chance.' i.e. a baby was just born, and died an early death. he/she will be given a second chance. people who have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, will be given second chance. suppose a dictator somehow noticed that what he was doing was all wrong and evil. if he truthfully prayed to god, and changed his life style into becoming a true faithful christian, god will forgive his sins. however, if he prays and expects god to forgive him while still sinning, he will not be forgiven.

the 'chosen' ones were chosen at the day of jesus's death. so the 144,000 will stay 144,000. when we live in paradise, we are just living as humans, in paradise. we will not sin, for satan will no longer exist. we will live life to the fullest extent, but we will not go to heaven. and in paradise, Jesus will rule as king over god.


1914 marks the date where peace could never be found again. the world had been changed for good. after many wars in acient times, they were still able to find peace. but, world war 2 was a chain reaction from world war 1, and after world war 2, we were definetly not able to find peace. even now we do not have peace in this world. we are in iraq having war. 911 had occured, costing thousands of lives. so after this 1914, there has been constant war

the people who has done evil things, will just stay dead. they will not go to any afterlife.

here's a little story about hell:

many people get confused with hades and hell. In Jerusalem, there was a garbage dump called 'Gehenna'. in this garbage dump, you would burn garbage and bodies of people who have no chance of living in paradise. they were people who were unwilling to change their faith. many peole think of this 'gehenna' as hades. hades is a symbol to where dead people go. people think that hades is hell, and that in hades you suffer forever. but actually hades is a place where the dead go, but they are still considered sleeping. just think of it as the bodies of the dead go to hades, but with no soul. and when god brings paradise, they will be ressurected. so really there is no such thing as hell.

zico
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As for upandcomings post on christianity, i agree wiwth you that the pope is not a sin free man. It says in the bible that jesus is the only sinfree man, everyone else including saints, mary and ect have sinned before, only jesus is without sin.

jesus is not god ocming down in the form of a human. jesus and god share the same characteristics, but are two seperate people.

And yes you are sleeping when you die, and paradise will come to earth, when the world ends god will raise you and judge you. paradise isnt living in clouds ok? thats a stereotype made on tv which is completely false.

Im not so sure about the hell part. i only know youre either gonan be tourtured for ever in burning fire or you DIE again and dissapear, since going to hell is stated as the second death

the wages of sin is death as stated in a verse. It doesnt say the wages of sin is burning in a fire for enternity, so dtak provides good argument.

zizou10-5
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As muslims we don't believe he ever said that he was the son of god that is just retarded, We believe u cannot associate nething with Allah. We don't believe God is 3 in 1 or in 3 or a Triangle we believe there is NO God but Allah n only one god who has the power of everthing, Allah says 'BE and it becomes'

Ronnie9
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zizou10-5 wrote:As muslims we don't believe he ever said that he was the son of god that is just retarded, We believe u cannot associate nething with Allah. We don't believe God is 3 in 1 or in 3 or a Triangle we believe there is NO God but Allah n only one god who has the power of everthing, Allah says 'BE and it becomes'
you said it the best bro..

cfrealmadrid
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well this is not arguement, i'm just trying to explain what we believe
.

i don't mean argument in the typical sense. whenever two people disagree on something, and state their separate cases, it's called argument. i know you're just trying to get your point across.

so about hell and death. the 'chosen' ones are the 144,000. the rest of the 'faithful' ones will live in paradise earth. the people who did not get the chance to 'get to know his (Jehovah) name will be given a second chance.' i.e. a baby was just born, and died an early death. he/she will be given a second chance. people who have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, will be given second chance. suppose a dictator somehow noticed that what he was doing was all wrong and evil. if he truthfully prayed to god, and changed his life style into becoming a true faithful christian, god will forgive his sins. however, if he prays and expects god to forgive him while still sinning, he will not be forgiven.
a second chance for what? just to be allowed to stay on 'paradise earth'? do people die there? if so, where do they go? if not, isn't that the same as heaven? the point of heaven in protestantism is for people who have asked forgiveness of their sins, and honestly are sorry for them. it seems that in your religion, people go to heaven because they BELONG to the religion, more so than actually FOLLOW it. it seems there's too much importance placed on the fact that they are jehovah's witnesses, and too little importance placed on the fact that they asked for forgiveness for their sins. i realize you probably will not see this as the case, but ask yourself this. if someone lived a life of crime and evil, and then felt sorry for everything they had done, prayed for forgiveness to god (for example, the protestant/catholic god), but didn't really believe in jehovah's witnesses, would they get a second chance?
the 'chosen' ones were chosen at the day of jesus's death. so the 144,000 will stay 144,000. when we live in paradise, we are just living as humans, in paradise. we will not sin, for satan will no longer exist. we will live life to the fullest extent, but we will not go to heaven. and in paradise, Jesus will rule as king over god.
how exactly were they chosen? did god pick the nicest people? or the ones who would help the most people? or was it a random lottery? and about no more sin because satan is gone: it's not satan that makes humans sin. it's our own nature, that we inherited from adam and eve. they were innocent, then they ate the fruit, and now we all suffer for their deception. it's not a matter of satan making us do anything. he caused the initial sin, and ever since, we've been marred by that one, and continue to do it ourselves.
1914 marks the date where peace could never be found again. the world had been changed for good. after many wars in acient times, they were still able to find peace. but, world war 2 was a chain reaction from world war 1, and after world war 2, we were definetly not able to find peace. even now we do not have peace in this world. we are in iraq having war. 911 had occured, costing thousands of lives. so after this 1914, there has been constant war
what's so significant about war? in god's eyes, isn't killing a man the same as stealing? if not, why is the same punishment given for both? there has been sin and evil ever since the garden of eden. there have been constant wars since then as well. when there's not a war, there's always someone, somewhere, doing something wrong (sinning). why is this so different from a war?
the people who has done evil things, will just stay dead. they will not go to any afterlife.


would you consider sinning evil? of course, or at least you should. everyone has done evil things. who's to say the degree to which we've done them matters? assuming the degree of evil did matter, what degree of evil would one need to have in order to be considered "evil" and therefore not worthy of a second chance, or to live on paradise earth? we're all evil in a sense, by nature, and therefore we all should have this punishment.
here's a little story about hell:

many people get confused with hades and hell. In Jerusalem, there was a garbage dump called 'Gehenna'. in this garbage dump, you would burn garbage and bodies of people who have no chance of living in paradise. they were people who were unwilling to change their faith. many peole think of this 'gehenna' as hades. hades is a symbol to where dead people go. people think that hades is hell, and that in hades you suffer forever. but actually hades is a place where the dead go, but they are still considered sleeping. just think of it as the bodies of the dead go to hades, but with no soul. and when god brings paradise, they will be ressurected. so really there is no such thing as hell.
that really doesn't explain why you don't believe in hell. also, it depends on your interpretation of hades, i.e. which culture's "hades" you're using. hades isn't a symbol. it's a real, physical place, where people go when they die. there they are judged and separated according to the way they lived. no wait, maybe hades is a place where only those who didn't accept god go, and wait to go to hell. wait, no, maybe.... it depends on whose version of hades you're talking about. i'm assuming you're using the hebrew version. to prove that there's no hell, you would assume that hell is the same as hades. it's not, by any culture's translation or views. so there is always the *possibility* that hell is real.

so i hope that made sense. most of those were honest questions, so i'm looking forward to see what answers you have. [/quote]
Hala Galacticos

Santana
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i hope everyone reads this who comes around here.im a christian my whole life and i belive in my heart that jesus is son of god and that god sended his only son to die for our sins, that whoever belives in him shal not parish but have eternal life. some of you here think diferent and dont agree with me but i garantee you this is the truth! the bible is gods message for all people on earth and god wants us to follow the right pad and not the wrong one!.im treying to tell the non belivers about jesus,thats a job that god gave me.i was only born in turkey and you may think all turkish people are muslims well that is true yes but i come from other way called syries orthodox and many chrsitians comes from that way.i admit im a sinfull man and pray everyday to god and im doing my best not to sin.god never wants that many people go to hell not even 1!.i advice you to read the bible and belive in his son. i had many discusions with muslim people.satan has blinded all muslims cause they dont belive jesus is gods son.religion is the most importand thing in life.

whoever doesnt accept jesus in their lives, they wil be thrown in hell.

who agrees with me and who not??
the ball is a part of my body!

Mulatto_Magic
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Finally some one!!!!!! Ya I agree I am christian to
~`Legend In The Making`~

peps1154
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zizou10-5 wrote:As muslims we don't believe he ever said that he was the son of god that is just retarded, We believe u cannot associate nething with Allah. We don't believe God is 3 in 1 or in 3 or a Triangle we believe there is NO God but Allah n only one god who has the power of everthing, Allah says 'BE and it becomes'
What are you talking about the bible is filled with circumstances of were Jesus says hes god's son the koran is similar so it must be there too. Then also who is gods son? the prophets predicted him but if Jesus wasn't it then who was?

Also Santana I , being a Roman Catholic, agree with you however you cannot take it upon yourself to convert people. Let them belive what they wanna belive.

*~El Maestro~*
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peps1154 wrote: What are you talking about the bible is filled with circumstances of were Jesus says hes god's son the koran is similar so it must be there too. Then also who is gods son? the prophets predicted him but if Jesus wasn't it then who was?

Also Santana I , being a Roman Catholic, agree with you however you cannot take it upon yourself to convert people. Let them belive what they wanna belive.
No, U wont find that in the koran. They specifically say that god has no son. But hey when someone is so convinced that they are right about that I just let them talk, because i respect their opinion. and also because we will one day see wont we. judgement day.

I also got a question for christians. I heard all this stuff about there being an "old testament" which was the original bible, but then people made a "new testament."
Can someone clear this up for me? Was the new testament really the teachings of god or was it just a couple of priests who changed the religion up?

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