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Hugh
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Post by Hugh »

zsmith4 wrote:Hugh

What Scripture are you referring too that seems to support slavery?
^ Exodus 22:2-3
^ Exodus 21:20, 26-27
^ Exodus 23:12
^ Deuteronomy 23:15
^ Proverbs 30:10
^ Leviticus 25:35
^ Deuteronomy 20:10-16
^ Deuteronomy 24:7
^ Exodus 20:10-16
^ Leviticus 25:44
^ Isaiah 22:2-3
^ Deuteronomy 16:14
^ Exodus 20:10
^ Leviticus 25:43
^ Leviticus 25:53
^ Leviticus 25:39
^ Exodus 21:26-27
^ Exodus 21:20-21
^ Leviticus 25:47-55
^ Exodus 21:7
^ Deuteronomy 15:12
^ Deuteronomy 15:13-14
^ Timothy 6:1
^ Titus 2:9-10
^ Peter 2:18
^ Ephesians 6:9

These passages pretty much lay out how Christians are expected to treat their slaves, nowhere in NT or OT is it considered that the actual institution of slavery is wrong. Moreover, judging by the enormity of scripture in the OT that was given over to instruction on how to properly own another human being for life I can only conclude that God's pretty chill with the whole thing.

So I say again, do you support slavery?
InterDeLaChance
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Post by InterDeLaChance »

zsmith4 wrote:klc123

A true Christian, believes that the Bible is the word of God. To use Scripture to back this particular point up is valid. If the Bible is special revelation, where Christians and Catholics alike are taking what they believe and live off of, it is a sad thought to think they don't believe it is God's very word.

Also, it is not just "few fundamentalists" that believe this. I have never met someone in my entire life from denominations such as Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, or non-denom churches that don't believe this. Aparrently, it is only the Catholics.
Actually most of the higher ups in every church believe that you shouldn't take the bible literally. Just to name a few these are some of the pastors and bishops that appeared in a movie about homosexuality and religion and they argued that people take homosexuality in the bible out of context.
The name of the film is "For the Bible Tells Me So"
These include: A higher up in the Baptist church(not sure her name)
Bishop Gene Robinson (Lutheran)
Rabbi Steven Greenburg (Jewish)
Reverand Jimmy Creech (Methodist)
Reverand Peter Gomes (Baptist)

The film also includes:
Reverend Dr. Mel White
Reverend Dr. Laurence C. Keene (In my opinion the most knowledgeable)
Reverend Steve Kindle
Rabbi Brian Zachary Mayer
Reverend Susan Sparks
Right Reverend Richard Holloway
Reverend Irene Monroe
Reverend Dr. Joan Brown Campbell
Dr. Richard J. Mouw
Reverend Steven Baines

Most of the people with the Dr. before their name have doctorates in theology and biblical studies. Same as you but with a lot more experience.

I'm a Sociology student and I think it's borderline dangerous to take the bible too literally.
panchester07
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Post by panchester07 »

Yeah Thats true

Man, I don't care how many theories, titles, you say you have, the Bible, isn't mead to be taken literally.. Its not that some people in the church believe it should, and some others don't, the Bible isn't supposed to be taken literally period. (this is @zsmith by theway)
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Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'
rzadzinski
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Post by rzadzinski »

zsmith4 wrote:Panchester07,

I just seek to clarify this issue about the Bible and Christians.

rzadisnski cannot claim that the Bible isn't taken as 100% literal. I have listed many verses in evidence to this fact. Also, I am schooled in many denominations and have been in the Christian community my whole life, the Bible is to be taken literally, but in context of the passage and book as well. As the Levitical sacrifices found in Leviticus aren't used today because of the New Covenant in the New Testament.

There are parables in the Bible, they are from Jesus himself giving them. However, Noah and the ark is not a parable, it is a story meant to be taken literally.
I respect your position however in my opinion and I believe many others', all accounts in the Bible aren't true stories. How does that explain the two separate creation stories? One with Adam and Eve, one with the 7 days of creation? You think that there is legitimate historical proof behind Noah's ark which held 2 of EVERY single species on the planet? That is how our world developed today?

I'm sorry but the Catholic church that I belong to recognizes the paraboles in the Bible which are meant to teach. Jesus tells paraboles with many, many lessons, but these are not all real recorded events.
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NewBornProdigy
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Post by NewBornProdigy »

Religion is such a vast beautiful, poetic and cruel system

It is far beyond all of us to understand any one religion to the point of perfect beleif, but further-more the dynamics of your brain is far above such restrictive and suppressive ideas of monotheism and faith

All of you need to realise is Religions, all of them, are socially imposed structures or interpretations on moral living and philosiphy

If you conform with a religion
You do not have to agree with its leading actions
You have to agree with its scriptures teachings

If you conform with a school
You do not have to agree with its discipline system
You have to agree with its teaching methods

The system is their for your benifit, so you should only be attentive to the ideals their for your benifit

No religion is right, yet none are wrong, they all have a 'pull factor' to attract your beleif... The simplest of these is faith (Abrahamic) the more complex being Karma or Re-incarnation (Eastern Philosiphies... ie. Buddism)

But they all have a 'pure factor' to cleasnse your mindset and morality... All religions are based around a moral structure, if you know anything about religion, this is what matters, not God, Allah, Hitler or Maradona, its the moral system. this is what saves you from hell, earth, limo and guides you to heaven, nirvana, bliss

If you don't know what the moral system for your religion is, for fu** sake go find out instead of filling the internet full of bulls**t

We all have such depth and potential to our thoughts and ideas, but we so often give it away and let something like established religion dilute and destroy our anayctical minds

At their core they are there to help the humans moral thoughts bloom, centuries of coating has made it horribly difficult to find the 'Truth' or the 'Way' but its all the more worth it

I really hope you all take the time to read throught this properly, its not supposed to be intimidating, but awakening

As children bleed on the streets and die,
I am ashamed.
I don't act I just wonder why.
I wonder who should I blame.
matt
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Post by matt »

klc123 wrote:1. I didn't say I was right, I just like practising my Critical Thinking skills I learnt in school :D
I suggest you get back to class and knuckle down. You need to do some work.
klc123 wrote: Btw, I don't really have any problem with Islam or question it, nor it's practitioners.
You obviously do or you wouldn't have asked those ridiculous questions in the first place. Hopefully you will think about what you say in future.
klc123 wrote: I don't care what G.W Bush said, he's an idiot.
Ah, so if someone does something bad because of what God told them to do then they are idiots. How are we to know who really is being instructed by God? Are they all idiots?
klc123 wrote: gosh I hope i get one of your "arguments", if you can call it that, in my paper, i'll have a field day.
I bet your examiner would love your paper. They rarely get to give out great big zeros these days.
klc123 wrote: I never said that him being human makes what he says "better" for all I care the pope could be the most ignorant person on the planet, but he is human, and just because he is a human who is the figure head of the church does not mean that he is right, nor did I try and say that.
I thought he was God's guy on Earth? What is he for then, if you as a Catholic don't accept what he says? Protestants seem to get along without such a figure.
klc123 wrote: There are people saying Black people caught aids by shagging monkeys. Saying condoms spread them is ignorant but its not an evil statement like the other one i mentioned.
Why must I constantly repeat myself to you. Actions and lies are as big as the consequences they have. What the Pope says affects church policy. This affects millions and millions of people, many of whom, as the church likes to remind us, are poor and uneducated. As a direct result of the Pope condoms are no longer provided by Catholic aid workers in Africa and millions suffer. I would classify his policy on condoms as evil.
klc123 wrote: I never said the morale fabric of the church was correct, for a matter of fact I happen to think it is on the brink of collapse. However, I do think that the Religion is not flawed, just the people who carry it out are.
Every religion is flawed. You are confusing fact with faith.
klc123 wrote:I didn't say race, I said species, which we are, Homo sapiens. Hugh is the one who tried to say that the Religions are different due to where they originated from/the race of the majority of the worshippers.
Yes I know that one wasn't directed at you.
panchester07 wrote: all your questions are really stupid, and I'm starting to think you might be an idiot yourself
panchester, you have missed the point and fallen into the trap of not reading far back enough into the forum. soccer11's reply to you should explain what we were doing :)
The Man Your Man Could Smell Like.
Icy
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Post by Icy »

Yeah, I'm just going to use this as confirmation Klc is nothing but a troll. On that note, I shall be ignoring his posts from now on..
"Somewhere along the line, we seem to have confused comfort with happiness"
klc123
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Post by klc123 »

@Matt
I'm actually loving this, way to be able to drop it matt, I didn't even reply to you.

You are telling me to get back to class? YOU are telling ME to get back to class and "knuckle down."? You're beyond a joke :lol:

Last 4 Critical exam papers, 87%, 89%, 81% and 93%. Good job kid, they are all high A's and one A*.

Yes, you know my views on other Religions better than I do, how on Earth could I question that.

No, my point was that George Bush is an idiot, regardless of what he does and his Religion, so that makes your point void from the outset.

Examiners rarely get to give out bad great big zeros? I'd love to say something cool and immature like "nawt really if you do exams," but that's a step too low for even I to sink to. Again, look to my results above and see how many "great big zeros" you encounter.

You think the Pope is Gods guy on Earth? Your more of a d**head than I thought, go learn about Christianity and Catholicism more before you start trying to denounce it.

Good point you have on the Pope however, I think you have me corned, nawt. If your faith is so strong that you take every word the Pope says literally, then you will also not been having sex outside of marriage, which is the biggest cause of AIDS and HIV transmission.

Again, no Religion is flawed, just peoples interpretation of it and how they perceive the Religion.

@Icy.
You needed confirmation? Wow, I at least thought you were marginally more intelligent than 99% of the planks on this Forum. Go ahead and ignore them, I couldn't give one tenth of a sh*t. :D

NBP I would just like to say I agree with your last post 100% on all areas. And no that isn't sarcasm this time. But what was the little passage at the bottom suppose to "awaken" us to exactly?
ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy »

I'm no shrink but im pretty sure KLC is a stereotypical character. He is either big headed and arrogant or has low self esteem and constantly needs to make bold claims or brag about somthing to himself feel important.

Either way I would recommend anyone to read what they type before they hit the big submit button as you risk making yourself come across as a complete lunatic.
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People who say something cannot be done are often surprised by others doing it.
zsmith4
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Post by zsmith4 »

InterDeLaChance

your sources are extremely liberal, especially the women minister. I am what you would call an evangelical Christian. Let me list a few schools and seminaries and church organization that believe you are to, as the Bible says, take it literally.

This link from the Master's Seminary offers great statements on doctrine. This particular link relates to the Holy Scriptures. http://www.tms.edu/AboutSOFTheHolyScriptures.aspx


Ashland Theological Seminary
Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary
Liberty University
The Master's College
The Master's Seminary
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
Dallas Theological Seminary
Cedarville University
Grand Rapids Seminary
Fruitland Bible College
Moody Bible Institute
Mid-Atlantic Christian University
Covenant College
Covenant Theological Seminary
Wheaton
Sovereign Grace Ministries
The Church at Brook Hills
Willow Creek Community Church, the largest church in North America
The ROC in Richmond VA
Baptist Bible Seminary
Phoenix Seminary
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Patrick Henry College
Moody Graduate School
Bethel Seminary
Multnomah Seminary
Gordon-Cronwell Seminary
Grace Theological Seminary
The Blackaby's churches and seminaries all throughout Canada
Grace To You - church
New Orleans Baptist Seminary

This is just a small list of colleges, seminaries, and some noteworthy churches. Thousands of faculty with doctorates and ordained ministers.

My friend, Christians do believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that its to be taken literally. There are parables and metaphors, but it isn't asking for intrepretation when it reads in Genesis about the six days of creation. There is an evangelical theological conference going on right now I believe, some of my professors are there as they were missing today.
zsmith4
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Post by zsmith4 »

Hugh,

This link does a better job than I could do. Also, in the Bible when it speaks of a servant, they were hired and paid, i just felt like that was needed for some verses.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
Hugh
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Post by Hugh »

That article is wrong, it suggests that slavery was not a form of racism but clearly it was. Look at the following two passages:
God wrote:However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
God wrote:If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
As you can see, the bible proposes one set of rules for Hebrew slaves (which as you say are more of indentured servants than slaves) and a much less favorable set of rules for any slaves who are non-Hebrew. Hebrew slaves are only to be kept for 7 years but any foreigner who is kept as a slave may literally be kept until the end of his life.

The article you quoted also failed to address the punishment of slaves. Given that this is in the bible do you support the following quote as well?
God wrote:When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
EDIT: Upon re-reading this, may I point out that under this logic you are allowed to put your slaves in a coma?

So again, are you in support of purchasing non-hebrew children from their parents (You probably could if you went to Africa), then beating them and putting them to work for you until they die of old age?

If the answer is no, then why not? God is pretty much telling you that it's ok.


EDIT: Also, I'd be much obliged if you could find me the passage where it states that all slaves must be paid because I don't think it exists.
soccer_after_death
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Post by soccer_after_death »

Hugh wrote:
zsmith4 wrote:Hugh

What Scripture are you referring too that seems to support slavery?
^ Exodus 22:2-3
^ Exodus 21:20, 26-27
^ Exodus 23:12
^ Deuteronomy 23:15
^ Proverbs 30:10
^ Leviticus 25:35
^ Deuteronomy 20:10-16
^ Deuteronomy 24:7
^ Exodus 20:10-16
^ Leviticus 25:44
^ Isaiah 22:2-3
^ Deuteronomy 16:14
^ Exodus 20:10
^ Leviticus 25:43
^ Leviticus 25:53
^ Leviticus 25:39
^ Exodus 21:26-27
^ Exodus 21:20-21
^ Leviticus 25:47-55
^ Exodus 21:7
^ Deuteronomy 15:12
^ Deuteronomy 15:13-14
^ Timothy 6:1
^ Titus 2:9-10
^ Peter 2:18
^ Ephesians 6:9

These passages pretty much lay out how Christians are expected to treat their slaves, nowhere in NT or OT is it considered that the actual institution of slavery is wrong. Moreover, judging by the enormity of scripture in the OT that was given over to instruction on how to properly own another human being for life I can only conclude that God's pretty chill with the whole thing.

So I say again, do you support slavery?
This thread is STILL here! :D

Anyways, real quick, just thought I'd chip in, for all the things that Islam (the religion I "follow") forbids, slavery is completely tolerated, and so much material is dedicated to it.
zsmith4
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Post by zsmith4 »

Hugh,

Leviticus 25:35-55: Read the whole passage, it provides better context. It also goes along with the article, slavery often was the result of poor men selling themselves into it.

Exodus 21: 2-6: they are slaves for a few years in a service that is in a context not of abuse, but of love, any permanent, involuntary ervitude for a Hebrew slave to a Hebrew master was obviously undesirable for Israelite society and was unknown in Israel (Lev. 25:35-55). Provision was also made to ensure the proper treatment of female slaves, who could not deliberately be left destitute by wrongful action on the part of their master.

Exodus 21:20-21, 26, 27: Punishment of slaves was considered the right of the owner (pr 10:13, 13:24), but did not allow for violence. Judges were to decide the approprate punishment if the slave died (v. 20). If the slave lived a few days it was evidence that the owner had no intent to kill, and the loss of the slave was punsihment enough (v. 21) . A beating without death immediately ensuing was construed as a disciplinary matter not a homicidal one. Any permanent personal inquiry brought freedom and loss of a master's investment. The master's power over the slave was thus limited, which made this law unprecedented in the ancient world.

The article does tell you how slavery worked in the ancient world, some historians claim as many as 1/3rd the pop. of Rome was enslaved, it was a much different slavery than we think about today, nevertheless, the end paragraph of the article spoke on how a Christian was to become reformed to slavery.

The New Testament doesn't directly attack slavery; had it done so, the resulting slave insurrections would have been brutally suppressed and the message of the gospel hopelessly confused with that of social reform. Instead, christianity undermined the evils of slavery by changing the hearts of slaves and masters. by stressing the spiritual equality of master and slave, the Bible did away with slavery's abuses.
Hugh
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Post by Hugh »

That passage does not provide better context at all, and it doesn't go along with the article. It's exactly as I stated before, there is one set of rules for hebrews who have fallen on hard times and sell themselves to their debtors to rid themselves of their debts. The problem is that there is quite clearly another set of rules for foreign slaves who are treated more basely than their hebrew counterparts. By no means do these passages in the bible constitute a direct support of racism but you cannot deny that the preferential treatment accorded to Israelite slaves is indicative of racist attitude in your holy scripture.

I'll admit that I was wrong about the coma, but really? Loss of the slave is punishment enough if they survive a few days after a beating? Or what about just beatings in general? According to the passage you quoted branding your slaves would be quite acceptable; how is that "doing away with slavery's abuses"?

The fact of the matter is that the compassionate and almighty lord is 100% comfortable with men owning and beating other men and women (and unless I am mistaken, children as well).
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