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Pichichi
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Matthew 7:12 is how I live my life. I'm not a studious reader of the bible, but my parents instilled in me how to live right. Jesus' lessons and teachings don't need to be read into too much to learn how to live a good life. Live right, add some faith and you'll be happy as hell :lol:

NewBornProdigy
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terminator wrote:"I still feel the world has too much suffering for there to be a all powerful and all merciful god "

I don't understand this point. Why do you make the assumption that God MUST play a role in the world? Maybe he lets things be. Maybe he rewards people(in the afterlife) who suffer more in this life.
And as Klc123 has also said, suffering is relative.
I beleive in an entinty that just lets things be, I beleive those who suffer, suffer relativley...

I just don't beleive in organised religion

The God Christianity preached to me as I grew up does not exist in that interpretation as far as I'm concerned

And the Bible is a dodgey document in itself because the first half is one religion and the second half is another... Like Chirst... OUR GOD... was JEWISH... We aren't even the same Religion as the person who started ours... Like thats a distorted form of blashphemy in itself

The three Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) are so blatently clear as three interpretations of a higher power of some sort... Yet to beleive in one makes you hell bound in the others
I find NBP's "easy to disprove a God" statement a very weak argument drawn from superficial understanding of Biblical doctrine
Its a beleif, I don't care of its strenght :D

Nat_H
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NewBornProdigy wrote:
I find NBP's "easy to disprove a God" statement a very weak argument drawn from superficial understanding of Biblical doctrine
Its a beleif, I don't care of its strenght :D
Not my idea of "proof", but fair enough.

NewBornProdigy
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Nat_H wrote:
NewBornProdigy wrote:
I find NBP's "easy to disprove a God" statement a very weak argument drawn from superficial understanding of Biblical doctrine
Its a beleif, I don't care of its strenght :D
Not my idea of "proof", but fair enough.
Thats rich coming from a devout christian... :wink:

klc123
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NewBornProdigy wrote:


And the Bible is a dodgey document in itself because the first half is one religion and the second half is another... Like Chirst... OUR GOD... was JEWISH... We aren't even the same Religion as the person who started ours... Like thats a distorted form of blashphemy in itself

The three Abrahamic Religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) are so blatently clear as three interpretations of a higher power of some sort... Yet to beleive in one makes you hell bound in the others
You really don't understand the concept of Religion. Jesus came preaching of a God, he was taught the ways of a Jew yes, because that's what his parents brought him up as. If you read about the subject first before making such statements you would know that he was later expelled and discounted by the High jewish priests for his ideas about God and for calling himself the son of God. Finally, he personally asked St Peter to be the rock in which he would build his fathers church on. He obviously believed in his own religion, because he was the one who inspired his followers to go on and preach it to the world the good news. To suggest otherwise is ignorant by your standards.

It never says in the Bible that Muslims and Jews go to hell. I'm sorry but you're way out of your depth in this subject Newborn...I understand you have your own opinions, but stop making up sh*t you don't fully know or understand to try and disprove other peoples religions. Jesus himself said "Religion is like a tall mountain with God at the top. You spend your life trying to get to the top, and there are more than one paths to the top, but the end result is the same, and as long as you believe in God, you will be forever welcome in his heaven."

As I mentioned before, he also said all who repent and are truly sorry for their sins and accept God, will be welcome in heaven. Demonstrated by him forgiving a Jewish criminal who was been crucified with him who said he believed in Jesus and was sorry for his sins.

Anyway, this is ironic coming from me but I don't give a sh*t. Learn to appreciate other religious beliefs and ideas without trying to discredit everything that doesn't fit your "ideals" because many people have a different perspective to you. I thought you of all people on this forum would understand that...

NewBornProdigy
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You really don't understand the concept of Religion. Jesus came preaching of a God, he was taught the ways of a Jew yes, because that's what his parents brought him up as. If you read about the subject first before making such statements you would know that he was later expelled and discounted by the High jewish priests for his ideas about God and for calling himself the son of God. Finally, he personally asked St Peter to be the rock in which he would build his fathers church on. He obviously believed in his own religion, because he was the one who inspired his followers to go on and preach it to the world the good news. To suggest otherwise is ignorant by your standards.
From what I read, Jesus exclusively began teaching Jews... He then got expelled by high preists for claiming he was the messiah or king of the Jews

He also accepted non Jews to follow his reformed version of Judaism

Jesus is the Jewish equivelant to Martin Luther, he was trying to alter the current installment of Judaism so it was more about core ethics

The pharisee's had lots of very strict laws, for example i don't think you could sweat on the sabbathe or dumb stuff like that... Jesus obviously enlightented somehow tried to change the laws and bring the religion back to what it was supposed to be, its root values

Very similar to what Martin Luther did
It never says in the Bible that Muslims and Jews go to hell.
Second commandment isn't it?

Thou shall not worship false Idols. Or something like that... doesn't that mean those who don't worship the Judo-Christian God aren't in gods favor

So maybe the jews are alright, but its still pretty conflicting... Especially when you involve hindus or buddists
Religion is like a tall mountain with God at the top. You spend your life trying to get to the top, and there are more than one paths to the top, but the end result is the same, and as long as you believe in God, you will be forever welcome in his heaven
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish - Einstein
Learn to appreciate other religious beliefs and ideas without trying to discredit everything that doesn't fit your "ideals" because many people have a different perspective to you.
You have to understand we are not obliged to appreciate anything that I don't see as working... I am perfectly entilted to dis-credit every sentence of the Bible if I see it supporting a system that I disagree with

Infact I don't remember once saying, something along the lines of:

'your an idiot, christ is false, think the way i think or your fu**ed'
'blah balh my opinion, To suggest otherwise is ignorant'
'you are a black mark on the Irish nation and I'm disgusted with you'
'Don't try and teach me my own belief because you clearly don't have any idea about Religion yourself'

I only mean to express my beleifs, I fully feel anyone who beleives in God and follows it through a Religion is on a great path... But I honestly find Religions to be nothing but glorified brainwashing philoisiphies

Philosipies that make people, better people... But glorified

klc123
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1. Christ tried to take people into the light of God. He didn't name it a certain religion, he was preaching the Good news of God. Christianity was the Religion that came about after he died by his disciples who named it that so that people knew they were worshipping Christ's teachings and the God he spoke of.

2. A God is not a false idol. A false Idol would be worshipping a king or a Pharaoh. You also do not go to hell for sinning, only if you intentionally sin for it and do not want forgiveness.

I have no problem with you trying to discredit Religion. The problem I have is that you are twisting things to use them as fuel for your argument, and as a Catholic I feel obliged to tell people the falseness behind your "teachings" and logic. Its nothing personal against you, I do not feel resentment towards you because you do not worship God, but I think it is very sad and quite frankly immature that you are trying to disprove something you know very little about but pretend to know everything about.

Just so you know, no Catholic has 100% understanding God and Religion. Nor does any Catholic try to say they do. The fact that you, as someone who isn't even Catholic, think you know more than us about our own Religion is insulting. I know I don't have all the answers, in fact I know very little answers when you look at how many there is in Reigion. But then again, I'm not the one trying to disprove your theories and "faith."

EDIT:

And btw, I'm definitely not trying to force my religion on you if that is what you think I am playing at. All I am doing is trying to show you my perspective on God, which you seem to have the complete opposite of, and trying to explain why I have this perspective. I've heard you say a lot that you think Religion is a theory for the weak-minded or whatever, but I haven't once heard you say why you actually think that. If I can put my faith in something that I do not know even 100% exists, and have countless people call me an idiot for having that faith, and countless explanations about how God cannot be true, then does that make me weak, or strong. Maybe stupid in some peoples eyes, but some of the stupidest people are also some of the strongest hearted.

Nat_H
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NewBornProdigy wrote:
Nat_H wrote:
NewBornProdigy wrote: Its a beleif, I don't care of its strenght :D
Not my idea of "proof", but fair enough.
Thats rich coming from a devout christian... :wink:
What are you trying to say?

NewBornProdigy
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klc123 wrote:Christ tried to take people into the light of God. He didn't name it a certain religion, he was preaching the Good news of God. Christianity was the Religion that came about after he died by his disciples who named it that so that people knew they were worshipping Christ's teachings and the God he spoke of.
Well from what I know, Christ was preaching to the Jews, calling himself to bring Gods people (The Jews) into the light of God and accepting Gentiles aswell

I can find a stupid number of quotes where he calls himself the King of the Jews, him calling himself that got him killed...

The God he spoke of was the Jewish God as far as I know (Hence half the bible being the Torah) Jesus was proclaimed as the Jewish Messiah, but the Jews didn't accept him... Not the other way round

Christianity infact didn't come about from his disciples, it was a Roman called Saul, who converted to the 'exiled Jew religion, Christianity' and changed his name to Paul, who set up the Religion as recognisable as it is today

The disciples spread the message of a Messiah, Paul began worshiping him

Open to being corrected, but that is what I've learned
klc123 wrote:A God is not a false idol. A false Idol would be worshipping a king or a Pharaoh. You also do not go to hell for sinning, only if you intentionally sin for it and do not want forgiveness.
You go to hell if you don't have faith in the one true God... Sin as much as you wish if you repent and truly are sorry you will be forgiven as long as you have faith in the one true god

The one true god is the Christian God, you can only reach him through faith in Jesus and Jesus' sacrifice

Hence if you do not beleive in Jesus as the Messiah/Son of God your hell-bound

That was Catholisim teaches
klc123 wrote:Just so you know, no Catholic has 100% understanding God and Religion. Nor does any Catholic try to say they do. The fact that you, as someone who isn't even Catholic, think you know more than us about our own Religion is insulting. I know I don't have all the answers, in fact I know very little answers when you look at how many there is in Reigion. But then again, I'm not the one trying to disprove your theories and "faith."
I am Catholic, I don't really follow it up but I was baptised and confirmed a Catholic...

I'm not trying to disprove your Religion

I am just saying... There is a Higher Power which is accesible to all people everywhere. We are in contact with it from the moment we are conceived. It guides everyone through life.

It has influenced many people to study it. Many people have interpreted it as Creation entity. With varying success people of try to appreciate the entity throught their interpretations of its workings, sources.

This has led to Religions. Religion is just a structured way of discovering this entity. Human corupption has led to Religions to distort the veiws of or paths to the Higher Power often by putting its interpretation in competition with other Religions and interpretations. (EX. love only our God all others are false)

This is why I see most Religions (especially 'Faith based Religions') as bad interpreations of a Higher Power

Please read that and understand that before calling me immature
klc123 wrote:I've heard you say a lot that you think Religion is a theory for the weak-minded or whatever, but I haven't once heard you say why you actually think that.
Never once have I said that in this conversation

klc123
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I can't even be bothered to argue about this any more...However you were taught about Catholicism was wrong and has clearly misguided you.

Your interpretation is completely different to mine, and I respect that, but a lot of the stuff you are saying is things I have not even heard or considered before by my Religious teachers or by Priests and Sisters themselves.

You don't go to Hell for not believing in the "one true God". How can you say there is one true God? As far as we teach there is only one God and if you believe in him he will accept you into Heaven. It doesn't matter if you are Muslim or Jew, you still believe in God, even if your interpretation of him is different. This is the message I have been saying from the very beginning...There for it also doesn't matter if Jesus was a Jew or not. But my point was that he clearly was the start of Christianity, he formed the new religion through his teachings and Ideas, even if he didn't concrete set it and pronounce it a new religion, as did his disciples.

Your mind set that Religions are completely different and share no similarities is wrong. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based around the same principals of life and God, their interpretation is just slightly different. I as a Christian Catholic just believe that Jesus was the saviour that told the world, not just Christians the light of God, and that is why he is recognised in all religions as a prophet, but only the saviour in Christianity. A different Religion is a different perspective and idea about the same thing. There isn't a thing like "my god" and "your God" There is just one God and we both have different ideas and beliefs about him. That is what Religion is...

NewBornProdigy
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klc123 wrote:I can't even be bothered to argue about this any more...However you were taught about Catholicism was wrong and has clearly misguided you
Your doing a bad job of justifying these type of statements, read Acts and Romans from the bible... Pretty much most of the required info is there... Another thing to bear in mind is the New Testemant is almost entirely wrote by Jews...
Your interpretation is completely different to mine, and I respect that, but a lot of the stuff you are saying is things I have not even heard or considered before by my Religious teachers or by Priests and Sisters themselves.
Right... maybe they're wrong?
You don't go to Hell for not believing in the "one true God". How can you say there is one true God? As far as we teach there is only one God and if you believe in him he will accept you into Heaven.
Lets go throught this again

The one true god is the Christian God, you can only reach him through faith in Jesus and Jesus' sacrifice

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - Acts 16:3
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins - John 2:2

Basically this states that Original sin is in all humans (thank Adam and Eve), when we sin (which is inevitable) we break our connection with God. In Judaism this is mended with animal sacrifice for human sins

Once Jesus came and died he was the sacrifice that mended the connection for eternity (Atonment). Now all that is nessecary to reach God is beleif in God and his Son as our Saviour

Jews and Muslims do not see Jesus as a Saviour but a false Messiah and Inspired Prophet (Respectively)

But for some strange reason, because of Jesus, Jews count his sacrifice as Atonment aswell and they don't sacrifice animals anymore. But don't see him as anything more than a false Messiah

But its quite clear, Beleive in One God, one (Almighty) Jesus... Otherwise your screwed
It doesn't matter if you are Muslim or Jew, you still believe in God, even if your interpretation of him is different.
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me - Jesus

Quite clearly states that unless you beleive in Jesus' atonment and divinity, you are not going to Heaven
But my point was that he clearly was the start of Christianity, he formed the new religion through his teachings and Ideas, even if he didn't concrete set it and pronounce it a new religion, as did his disciples.


Christianity is a modern reformed version of Judaism, It is basically Judaism with a different name... Not that it matters much... My point still stands Its just a slightly altered interpretation of a Universal Higher Power
Your mind set that Religions are completely different and share no similarities is wrong.
Are you even reading what I say? I didn't say that
Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based around the same principals of life and God, their interpretation is just slightly different.
That is my point
A different Religion is a different perspective and idea about the same thing. There isn't a thing like "my god" and "your God" There is just one God and we both have different ideas and beliefs about him. That is what Religion is
I said that like 17 posts ago and repeated it like 6 times since :wink:

terminator
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Hey we also believe in Jesus being the Messiah. Just wanted to say...he is not just a Prophet. He is also special in Islam. For example, whereas Muhammed(pbuh) is dead and buried in Saudi Arabia, Jesus(pbuh) is alive and with God.


"Muslims believe that Jesus (Isa) is the Messiah (Masih) and will return to Earth to defeat the Dajjal (false messiah"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

Here are some verses of Jesus in the Qu'ran. Hopefully, this will help better understand Jesus(pbuh) in Islam:

"But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. "

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs."(Qu'ran 4:171)

NewBornProdigy
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I'm so wrong sometimes its annoying :D

But I had confirmation this week from several Religious sources (preists, teachers and a bishop) that Jesus was infact attempting to reform Judaism, much like Martin Luther Reformed Christianity

Icy
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NewBornProdigy wrote:I'm so wrong sometimes its annoying :D

But I had confirmation this week from several Religious sources (preists, teachers and a bishop) that Jesus was infact attempting to reform Judaism, much like Martin Luther Reformed Christianity
Eh, anyone religious twists the stories to align with their morals, and then attribute their morals to religion. So, it's really no surprise different people think different things happened from one book. -.-
"Somewhere along the line, we seem to have confused comfort with happiness"

klc123
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I apologise terminator, was talking more along the lines of Judaism in terms of Christ being a Prophet and not a Messiah.

My knowledge of Islam is pretty limited to be honest, so thanks for the info.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your opinion on Marriage with non Muslims?

I've heard that many Muslims preach that Muslim men can marry people of any religion, but Muslim girls can only marry Muslim men.

I understand of course not all Muslims follow such seemingly stupid rules. But what is your opinion on it?

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