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NewBornProdigy
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You sound awfully certain about a subject which has no way to be proven
Religious God is very simple to dis-prove, in a religious sense God is all powerful and all merciful... The world and is many natural systems are very efficeint but have many flaws that contribute to suffering, these flaws contribute to the notion that God is either not all powerful or not all merciful and hence not omnipotent and hence non existant

A religious God can not exist in a world like this

A higher force does not claim any athourity over humans mercy or power, hence it can be interpreted as responsible for the many systems of natural growth, decline and learning we experience in our lifetimes, but the systematic flaws can not be attributed to a fault in the higher power

A higher power can, and probably does exist in todays world, more-so Religions are mere bad interpretations of this higher power
Religion is man's interpretation of God and what he is saying. God is not flawed, Religion is.

If your argument is that there is no God, then think about what happens after death. Our lifetime is a mere nano second in physical time, you really think that we experience life the way we do for no reason? I believe it is a gift from God.
You either didn't read or didn't process what I said did you? There is a higher power, that entity is not bound by religious ideals
Why does something you consider beautiful have to be attributed to something rather than it just happened'? Even then, some people think certain things are beautiful while others don't, did a higher power not influence that?
Well I strongly beleive in natural law and system...

And I've always felt risque, desirable things (lust) are things created by nature to educate you in hollow, meaningless connections with desirable substances, emotions or relationship

I've also always felt beautiful, heart warming things (love) are things nature rewards you with once you understand the lack of potentcy in indelicate desires

So I beleive 'real' beauty is an attribute created by the or a higher power as a 'nirvana' in a sense

to cover it in breif...
To explain myself better. You have many million cells in your body, all of them interlinked by chemical and nervous transmission. They communicate because they need to, to survive. However, we only have one mind. Do mere bacteria crawling on your skin have a mind? A memory? A consciousness?
Ive always felt that argument as questionable for proof as a higher power. Your body's systems communicate with the sole purpose of survival.
Emotions etc. are just advanced versions of primitive survival techniques (fear = protection, love = reproduction)

Bacteria's body systems have only the purpose of survival, it is so successful that it survives without much evolution

Our body systems are just a result of many evolutionary steps in attempt to make the ultimate survival machine

Evoluotion and science explains that happening better than a Higher Power

klc123
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You say that the world has too much suffering in it for there to be a God.

Maybe we are living in utopia, but we cannot see that while we are inside of it, we can only see as an on looker looking into it. As humans our natural instinct is to want more, so if we really do have utopia, we would still want more naturally.

A religious God can not exist in a world like this
I thought you of all people would know better to say something can or cannot happen indefinitely. There is always possibilities. The thing with faith is, I believe in God with all my heart and mind, I know this. However, I know it would be stupid and uneducated to go around telling people he definitely does exist, because no matter how close we can get to proving his existence, it is likely we will always just be marginally off proving it 100%.

God doesn't claim authority over us, humans labelled God as an authoritative character. Jesus spoke about an all loving God.

You are still missing my point. We would be a much more successful race if we did not have individual personalities and ideals. Therefore there seems to be a reason for which we have evolved them in the manner in which we have.

NewBornProdigy
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klc123 wrote:Maybe we are living in utopia, but we cannot see that while we are inside of it, we can only see as an on looker looking into it. As humans our natural instinct is to want more, so if we really do have utopia, we would still want more naturally.
Heaven is utopia. If earth is utopia, it really defeats the purpose of trying to be a good christian to get into something your already part of. without a significant appeal towards heaven the sin system doesn't work. Without a sin system either God or humans have no real purpose

This conculdes that:

Utopia on earth and a God cannot co-exist
Flaws on earth and a God cannot co-exist

Hence:

In a religious definition of God, he is either:
-non existent
-not omnipotent
-Or merely an interpretation of a higher power

So possibly religions proclaiming omnipotent Gods are bulls**t
I thought you of all people would know better to say something can or cannot happen indefinitely. There is always possibilities. The thing with faith is, I believe in God with all my heart and mind, I know this. However, I know it would be stupid and uneducated to go around telling people he definitely does exist, because no matter how close we can get to proving his existence, it is likely we will always just be marginally off proving it 100%.
I'm merely saying, in the form you see him as, he doesn't exist... personally thats where I stand... Unless people open themselves to the ideas of others, they will 'typically' be choked by religion...
God doesn't claim authority over us, humans labelled God as an authoritative character. Jesus spoke about an all loving God.
Have you ever read the bible :P
klc123 wrote:You are still missing my point. We would be a much more successful race if we did not have individual personalities and ideals. Therefore there seems to be a reason for which we have evolved them in the manner in which we have.
I dunno how you came to that conclusion, but read this again

Ive always felt that argument as questionable for proof as a higher power. Your body's systems communicate with the sole purpose of survival.
Emotions etc. are just advanced versions of primitive survival techniques (fear = protection, love = reproduction)

klc123
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Don't try and teach me my own belief because you clearly don't have any idea about Religion yourself.
Heaven is utopia. If earth is utopia, it really defeats the purpose of trying to be a good christian to get into something your already part of.
Life is a gift, we are not been good to get into Heaven, we as Catholics try to be good because we believe it is the right thing to do and it is what our God has told us to do. Jesus has never said that you have to be good to get into Heaven, on the contrary, in the Bible it states he reconciles a criminal who is been crucified at the same time as him, saying that all who repent are welcome in Heaven.

Do you work hard at what ever job you have because you want a raise, or because you think it is the right thing to do. If you only work hard because you want more money, you are a black mark on the Irish nation and I'm disgusted with you, as the Irish have always prided themselves on been hard workers, regardless of bad pay.
This conculdes that:

Utopia on earth and a God cannot co-exist
Flaws on earth and a God cannot co-exist
No it really doesn't, it has nothing to do with them. Heaven, life and God are things far to spiritual for me or you to understand. You are only making yourself look more childish by trying to proclaim things like this. I fully acknowledge the possibility of no God and a God, I am definitely not been so uneducated to make such presumptions conclusively.
Have you ever read the bible :P
Of course I have read the Bible, don't be so petty you child. The fact that you have another opinion to me I can appreciate 100%. The fact that you cannot comprehend any but your own I find vile.
Unless people open themselves to the ideas of others, they will 'typically' be choked by religion...
Wise words, so learn from them yourself.

Whatever hate you have manufactured in your mind against Religion, is completely choking and blinkering your perception of the world. Open your eyes and start to think outside the box, if every human thought the way you did, it would be a far more backward place than the "flawed" one you say it is.

Edit:

Good-fight. :P

Icy
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NBP it's not worth even attempting a debate with Klc, there isn't any room in his mind to deviate from his faith. Faith is one hell of a thing, not only for religion, but anything, business, relationships, sports ;)

I like that he tells people to be open minded, but his attempt to disprove anyone is "it's something too complex to understand". What kind of bulls**t reasoning is that. lol

I like your belief though NBP, so are you kind of buddist type thinking? I love the type of thinking of it honestly. Heard that, maybe not Buddhism, but some ideology thinks of us as never dying, but simply in and out of states of life (or something like that). That really is mind blowing to me, because that is (in my mind) what happens, but never really though of much.
"Somewhere along the line, we seem to have confused comfort with happiness"

klc123
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I can deviate from my faith fine, but I take insult when someone tries to say I don't even know my own religion.

So you say your mind is capable of understanding things such as Faith, God and Life? LOL.

Good fight KThanxguysbye.

NewBornProdigy
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klc123 wrote:Life is a gift, we are not been good to get into Heaven, we as Catholics try to be good because we believe it is the right thing to do and it is what our God has told us to do. Jesus has never said that you have to be good to get into Heaven, on the contrary, in the Bible it states he reconciles a criminal who is been crucified at the same time as him, saying that all who repent are welcome in Heaven.
Your right Jesus said Faith and Love for God is all that is nessecary...

I'm just trying to point out the impossiblity of Earth being Utopia and Heaven still co-existing

The structure of Christianity is based around God taking you to a Utopia if you have faith in him

How does that system work if we are already there?
klc123 wrote:Do you work hard at what ever job you have because you want a raise, or because you think it is the right thing to do. If you only work hard because you want more money, you are a black mark on the Irish nation and I'm disgusted with you, as the Irish have always prided themselves on been hard workers, regardless of bad pay.
Thats a big conclusion your after jumping to there my man
klc123 wrote:No it really doesn't, it has nothing to do with them. Heaven, life and God are things far to spiritual for me or you to understand. You are only making yourself look more childish by trying to proclaim things like this. I fully acknowledge the possibility of no God and a God, I am definitely not been so uneducated to make such presumptions conclusively.
Well being my ignorant un-educated self, I beleive Heaven, Life and God are difficult to pull into perspective but not impossible to understand
klc123 wrote:Of course I have read the Bible, don't be so petty you child. The fact that you have another opinion to me I can appreciate 100%. The fact that you cannot comprehend any but your own I find vile.
I'm sorry I was a bit snide... But heres what would have been better to post
klc123 wrote:God doesn't claim authority over us, humans labelled God as an authoritative character. Jesus spoke about an all loving God.
Matthew 28:18
Jesus came and spoke to them, saying. All power is given to me in heaven and in earth

Revelations 19:6
Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth
klc123 wrote:Whatever hate you have manufactured in your mind against Religion, is completely choking and blinkering your perception of the world. Open your eyes and start to think outside the box, if every human thought the way you did, it would be a far more backward place than the "flawed" one you say it is.
Calm down, my 'ignorance' will not be wavered over the internet... I've met many people in my life and had many experiences with the world that have influenced my veiws... None of them had to shout or insult me to open my eyes.
I like your belief though NBP, so are you kind of buddist type thinking? I love the type of thinking of it honestly. Heard that, maybe not Buddhism, but some ideology thinks of us as never dying, but simply in and out of states of life (or something like that). That really is mind blowing to me, because that is (in my mind) what happens, but never really though of much.
Yeah its very Nilhist, Taoist and Buddist influenced... But I leave room for my own interpretations of life and afterlife

You can have some amazing moments of relaxing spiritually just looking at something beautiful for ages (like a clear night sky) and pondering about the world

Its really about peace of mind

klc123
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Ok that's better.

You may interpret the Bible as saying God is an authoritative characther, but my interpretation is that God is all powerful, but is also not a strict punishing God.

These are sub-divides that exist in Religion, many people think of God to be a judge and a punisher, where as Catholics generally regard to him been a shepherd looking over us and caring for us.

You could argue that this is a fault in the religion, and if I am frank it is to be honest, because there are so many different ways things can be interpreted. But as I said, God is not flawed, Religion is, and Religion is the creation of man to try and carry out what we believe to be Gods will.

Earth could be Utopia, that is correct. I personally don't believe it is, but I don't dispel that it could be. I tried to use it as a point that even if we had Utopia on Earth, humans would probably still not be satisfied, but I now see the flaw in this logic...

The point of life is not to reach Utopia as a sort of reward. The purpose of heaven is to be with God, as we say in death we ascend unto heaven to be with our father. That is quite essentially different go going to a perfect place. It could be compared to perhaps going back to your home town, because no matter how much of a sh*t hole it might be, it is still home and has a place in your heart. It just so happens that where we ascend to, is also, supposedly, perfect.

In my opinion, Religion is impossible to 100% understand. That is what keeps our faith strong. It can be viewed as a shot in the dark in some ways, because the fact that we are not certain strains our faith, but with everything that strains you, it also makes you stronger. If it was a definite game of "this is like this and that is like that" then there would be no test in faith, and hence the faith formed would be weaker imo.

NewBornProdigy
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You could argue that this is a fault in the religion, and if I am frank it is to be honest, because there are so many different ways things can be interpreted. But as I said, God is not flawed, Religion is, and Religion is the creation of man to try and carry out what we believe to be Gods will.
In my opinion. There is a higher power, that entity is not bound by religious ideals

-I interpret that higher power one way
-You interpret it as a religion orientated 'god'
-My arguement was a religious God is an impossibility, but beleivers twist the laws of their faith to make it work
Earth could be Utopia, that is correct. I personally don't believe it is, but I don't dispel that it could be. I tried to use it as a point that even if we had Utopia on Earth, humans would probably still not be satisfied, but I now see the flaw in this logic...
You used it to back up this statement

You say that the world has too much suffering in it for there to be a God

I still feel the world has too much suffering for there to be a all powerful and all merciful god
In my opinion, Religion is impossible to 100% understand. That is what keeps our faith strong. It can be viewed as a shot in the dark in some ways, because the fact that we are not certain strains our faith, but with everything that strains you, it also makes you stronger. If it was a definite game of "this is like this and that is like that" then there would be no test in faith, and hence the faith formed would be weaker imo
Its possible to take a leap of faith in god without having to involve a religion at all... Thats where I stand

There is a powerful entity even greater than you and I... No way is that involved with something as stupid and flawed as Religion... No way imo

klc123
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I think you are forgetting that Religion isn't merely a believe about a higher power. It is also greatly about how you should live your life and how to be a better person.

Many people convert to religions like Christianity and Buddhism because of the way it involves living your life, in the most peaceful and respectful way possible. You can't say anything that promotes living your life in the best way possible is 100% incorrect. Granted there are a few examples in which Religious members may commit bad crimes and hideous acts, but ultimately that is not the Religions fault, that is merely the individuals lack of ability to carry out or interpret the Religion the way it was intended to be interpreted.

I don't think there is too much suffering in the world for there to be a God?
In fact I don't think there is great suffering in the world. What are you comparing it against? We have no comparison chart to say how people should suffer or what is "not suffering". It is all to do with perspective. Some people earn millions every year, but feel they are suffering because they are unhappy in life or lonely. Likewise some of the poorest people on Earth don't feel like they are suffering, because they are always with their family and always doing what they want to be doing.

In terms of pain suffering, from disease, hurt and emotion, what is the median? If we didn't have pain and "down" moments, we would also not be able to experience the happy "up" moments. We can only compare things, we do not universally feel a emotion, we just feel it as been better compared to something else we have felt, or at least that is my opinion.

For example, someone who has been in prison all their life, might say that when they get out of prison, it is the greatest feeling on Earth and they are overjoyed, because they might not have seen anything better than that suffering for a long time. Likewise someone who lives a well off life might only feel such moments of pure joy and happiness once or twice in their life time, or not even at all.

I've strayed miles off topic now, but this links back to God because it shows us that maybe there is no point in having a world without suffering, because a world without suffering, also means a world without joy and happiness, and I believe that is why God designed the world the way it is.

Life is an experience, and although not always pleasant one, if we did not have the bad times in our life, we would have no idea if we had ever had a good one either, and I don't know about you, but I would much rather have some happiness in my life if it comes with suffering on the other side of the coin, than have no ups or downs at all.

Nat_H
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I would contend that the Judeo-Christian God is not all-merciful. The Bible clearly say that He will judge. You have to reconcile this with what it says about His mercy. God is very merciful, but is not all-merciful.

I find NBP's "easy to disprove a God" statement a very weak argument drawn from superficial understanding of Biblical doctrine.

klc123
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The Bible was written by man. That fact will always remain. I'm not denouncing it or saying it is worthless, because that would also be false, but it is never going to be 100% correct in my opinion, as man can corrupt things.

It is only really the Old Testament that says such things Nat, and to be honest, as Catholics we do not really use the Old testament as much as the New, which is much more significant as it describes the life of Christ and his teachings, which are far more useful.

Jesus taught of a kind loving God, and God sent forth his son to teach us this, amongst other things, and then die for us. This makes his side of the story (at least if you believe) more credible than those who came before.

And yeah, Religion is more than what is written in the Bible. The Bible is a book that tries to teach us how we should act and think about God, whether it actually does that accurately is another story. It is a good guideline, but faith comes from the heart ultimately, and I find the best guidance will always come from the heart once you have truly let God into your heart.

Nat_H
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The whole of the Bible is the story of God; and, yes, God's justice and impending judgment is made clear in the New Testament.

The current era of mercy and grace will come to an end, the expression of God's ultimate love having been fulfilled and the expression of His ultimate justice being imminent.

terminator
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"I still feel the world has too much suffering for there to be a all powerful and all merciful god "

I don't understand this point. Why do you make the assumption that God MUST play a role in the world? Maybe he lets things be. Maybe he rewards people(in the afterlife) who suffer more in this life.
And as Klc123 has also said, suffering is relative.

@Klc123:

"The Bible was written by man. That fact will always remain."

That was a shocker for me. I am just curious...what are your exact beliefs? You are still a christian right?

panchester07
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@Klc123:

"The Bible was written by man. That fact will always remain."

That was a shocker for me. I am just curious...what are your exact beliefs? You are still a christian right?
My belief, is that the New Testament was written by man, aka, the 12 disciples, who where inspired by the Holy Spirit... So it wasn't like just a normal man telling a story, it was Jesus' best friends and followers, who where inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible... Most where then persecuted and killed like marthyrs, but they where inspired by the Holy Ghost and didn't really care...

I think it was John who was gonna get crucified, but said he didn't deserve to die the same way Jesus Christ did, so they crucified him upside down... A few years ago, most would have probably run away, like cowards, but they where inspired by God.

When Jesus died they where all scared and hidden, with little faith.. He resurrected, and somewhere along the lines the disciples became inspired by the holy spirit, full of faith, and started spreading the message.

Thats what we believe.
to know Him is to want to know Him more"


"i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not"

Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..'

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