Religion

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Sputnik
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Religion

Post by Sputnik » 16 Dec 2005, 23:38

First off this post isnt meant to offend anyone, i just had my RE mock today and it got me thinking. In this im going to talk about Christianity as its the religion i know most about, although that is very little. As i say if im wrong about anything i dont want to cause an arguement just get an explination for my quiery.
If a God by its very definition is benevolent (goodnatured) omnipotent (allpowerful) and omniscient (allknowing) then any bad things in the world must be by his design, or by human free will.
If i am born into a solitary box and never come into human contact, barring miracles, there is no way i can come into contact with christianity, and am therefore doomed to hell. God new i would be born into a box, and therefore condemed me into an afterlife of torture, although i could commited no sins, i was not Christian so i go straight to hell. This happens throughout the world, god creates people who will never believe in him and condems them to hell. The arguement against this is 'free will', hence the following arguement...
God 'created all life and everything'. God created every human, and all of earth, and through his combination of the two, God knew every single situation that would ever occur. And if God created humans, created dna, and created their personality, and the situation they would be in, god practically created their ractions to certain situations. Like if God created a person and they murder someone, God created that person exactly how he meant it, and the situation under which they commited the muder, and on top of that he knew from the moment they were born (and before) they would commit that act. For me this totally disagrees with any notion of free will. We may think our thoughts are our own, but it is only through a mixture of how god created us and the situation god creates for us (all of which he intended) that we think what we do
ie no free will.


Thoughts, how are my arguements flawed?
(Ps are you religious or not?)
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karlofootball10
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Post by karlofootball10 » 16 Dec 2005, 23:54

im not religious, i tend to believe science more. i believe in evolution, not creation. God couldnt have created everything, and if he did, where did he come from?
what happens to people from different religions, does the christian God sentence those who dont believe in him, but another god, to hell?
the way i see it, religion and belief should just be ways that are followed, because i doubt that heaven, hell, god or anything else from any other religion actually exists. its impossible.

about the box thing: God did not create you, your parents did. if you were in the box your whole life and you werent a christian and nothing much happened in your life, you would be the same as everyone else:dead. there is no afterlife, when you are dead, that is it, you dont go anywhere. your brain stops functioning along with other body functions, and it is like when you are sleeping but not dreaming, you have no knowledge of your existence.

its a nice thing to believe in, though, i just have a hard time avoiding the facts that are true.

have you read dante's inferno, very interesting piece of literature, explaining the nine levels of hell and other things.
if a quiz is quizzical, then what's a test?
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Sputnik
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Post by Sputnik » 17 Dec 2005, 00:00

im not religious either n dont believe in god afterlife or hell etc
all of what i said is hypothetical and trying to prove god doesnt exist unless i ddnt get my point across. i have no christians to point my arguements to so im posting here to see how my arguements stack up against religious counterarguement. all of the arguements are extreme and exaggerated but im trying to prove my points as best i can without flaws or holes

i havent read dante's thing, is that the thing that describes the fall etc?
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cfrealmadrid
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Re: Religion

Post by cfrealmadrid » 17 Dec 2005, 04:04

alright, i'll try to give my view on this, or at least contribute what i can. my dad's actually a minister, so i was kind of raised on this stuff. i've questioned most of the things you have a number of times, and i still don't have answers for some things. so here's what i think.

you said a person, being born into a box, and not committing any sins, would go to hell because they were not a christian. there's a pretty good explanation for that. there's something in christianity called the "age of accountability." it's not the same for every person. it's basically the moment you can adequately realize what's right, and what's wrong (sin), you're accountable for your actions. not just "oh, mom will put me in timeout if i write on the walls," but rather "i'm not going to steal because it wouldn't be right morally." if a person lived in a box their whole life, they wouldn't have the experiences to teach them one thing is wrong and one thing is right. the same goes for babies, mentally handicapped, and young children who die and cannot really tell the difference between sin and good deeds. as far as people who just never hear of him...that's one of the things i don't understand, and probably never will. i know it sounds stupid, but you just have to believe when it comes to that subject.

also, regarding your free will argument. god knowing what will happen, and causing that same situation to occur are two different things. if i were to watch someone put food coloring into a bowl of water, i would know what was about to happen, but i wouldn't have caused it. i know where you're coming from on this though. you meant that god created some people to be more predisposed to violence and sin than others, so it's like he's causing the person to commit that act. it's still the person's choice though. say there were two people who grew up in a poor section of a third world country. one went on to be an ambassador to the peace corp, and led a lot of anti violence rallies, and the other went on to be an assassin and drug dealer. they handled their situations differently, and consequentally got different results. if i got a slab of clay, and another person got the same size slab, chances are that one of us would make a better sculpture than the other.

anyway, i hope my explanations made sense. hopefully they'll make you think a little bit. i'm not trying to preach or anything, so sorry if it sounded like it. if you've got any other questions, or if i wasn't clear on something (likely), i'll gladly answer anything else you have to say.
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expert
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Re: Religion

Post by expert » 17 Dec 2005, 04:32

Sputnik wrote:Like if God created a person and they murder someone, God created that person exactly how he meant it, and the situation under which they commited the muder, and on top of that he knew from the moment they were born (and before) they would commit that act.
The Bible states very clearly that humans adopted free will when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Then God condemned them to an imperfect material existance of labor and suffering. Notice that prior to that everything was good (there was no pain, death, shame, etc) BUT through the existence of evil (or variation of good and bad) also came free will. Without evil there is no free will.
Sputnik wrote:And if God created humans, created dna, and created their personality, and the situation they would be in, god practically created their ractions to certain situations.
Your personality is determined NOT ONLY by your genetics by your environment and your interaction with others (who have free will)
I don't belive in any religion but I like the teachings of Buddhism.

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Post by ROIUSA » 17 Dec 2005, 04:43

ya im wiked religous, theology is just my thing. i get it. but ive always wondered Jesus says the 1st commandment is the most important, to love God with all ur being. but just say for an atheist who lives just as good as the best Christian but they dont love God. Does this just make God a divine rapist in a sense? Love me or ill send u to hell?
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expert
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Post by expert » 17 Dec 2005, 05:18

ROIUSA wrote:Does this just make God a divine rapist in a sense? Love me or ill send u to hell?
You have to look at it in sociohistorical context. There were many pagan/local religions in the ancient world so it's natural for this to be an important teaching of Christianity (and of other contemporary faiths too)
The reason why Christianity became so "popular" though was because of the New Testament and the idea that it's a religion for the poor and suffering. Jesus said stuff like "Blessed are the poor" which was a really revolutionary concept at the time. Prior to that being rich ensured your spot in heaven - it meant you can sacrifice more stuff to your God, pay the local priests... etc

*yung-ital*
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Post by *yung-ital* » 17 Dec 2005, 05:57

expert just owned sputnik.


Anyways, I am a catholic and expert pretty much said my points but if science created us all, then why? and what created that little spark of science that started us all? what created the world that we live on? it just happened one day? there has to have been something that created us. A higher power must have created us. How could science just created us and the world, because then what created the small little particle or rock or even space? and if there was nothing in the world no planets no space no air no stars no black darkness in space, then what does nothing look like? because if we try and picture that , what comes to my mind is whiteness, but that is still something. Something had to have created us, and i am sorry, but i believe that there is a god, and i believe he is carrying me each day and his fate is in his hands.
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Post by R9KEvinR9 » 17 Dec 2005, 06:16

Iam a Roman Catholic ive always believed in God my family is very religous we go to church every sunday (almost every sunday)i pray every night before i go to sleep. My uncle is a Preist and my Grandmother is very religous prays about 5 times a day ... every time the family gets together we pray in the morning and at night which is wonderful because we are all together which is awesome we all talk about how we can do better life. my life is great because of me being catholic i thank God for everything that happens sometimes i feel like i can talk to him and hes there. when ever are relatives come we all talk about how great God is , it seems that hes always watching out for my family. My uncle (preist) had a talk with me that was very inspirational and short he said that i had the dedication and passion for soccer (ive always said that iam taking El Salvador to the world cup thats what hes reffering to)that hes seen people have but theres something about me the way i talk about the sport and the will i have that he thinks what ever i want to do i can achieve it, i can fly as high as i want and never let no one get in my way because its all in my heart and in my head and God will guide you. My family always thanks and loves God we have many pictures and bibles in our house. And iam very greatful for this because some people who dont believe in God dont know how good it feels when you go to church and pray with family. one day every one will see God and that its so sad why people have to see to believe. Every one always says to themselves" why is this happening to me " when something bad is going on but why dont we thank God when something great just happened to us thats something iam diffenitly i too have trouble doing sometimes and which i hope to change drastically.

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Post by J » 17 Dec 2005, 06:25

In sometype of way i do believe in god, but religon is a crutch for the weak minded in my opinion. The bible wasnt born in your hands, another human put it there.

Another thing i would like to point out is i have heard alot of people say that you need to believe in jesus to go to heaven and have eternal life, so does that mean that some kid in a poor country who has to find food all day so he doesnt starve, and has to worry about the basic needs of life every single day, isnt going to heaven because he was never even given the chance to learn about jesus??

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Post by expert » 17 Dec 2005, 06:49

*yung-ital* wrote:expert just owned sputnik.
LOL. Not at all, I was just pointing out my perspective.
*yung-ital* wrote:but if science created us all, then why? and what created that little spark of science that started us all? what created the world that we live on? it just happened one day?
At the start of the big ban, time didn't exist in the way you think of it.
*yung-ital* wrote:there has to have been something that created us. A higher power must have created us.
We humans tend to look for meaning in everything. I mean who wants to belive that we're here by accident or for no reason at all.
*yung-ital* wrote:How could science just created us and the world, because then what created the small little particle or rock or even space? and if there was nothing in the world no planets no space no air no stars no black darkness in space, then what does nothing look like? because if we try and picture that , what comes to my mind is whiteness, but that is still something. Something had to have created us, and i am sorry, but i believe that there is a god, and i believe he is carrying me each day and his fate is in his hands.
We see ourselves as detached observers, deliberately put here in the vast, mysterious universe. But we are very much apart of it - every atom in your body came from exploding stars which came from other exploding stars which came from the big bang. We are 100% a part of the universe. One of the most profound revelation I came across is: "we are the universe, trying to understand itself"
J wrote:at some kid in a poor country who has to find food all day so he doesnt starve, and has to worry about the basic needs of life every single day, isnt going to heaven because he was never even given the chance to learn about jesus??
J, your post will stir sh^t up. I can just see it. :)

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Post by J » 17 Dec 2005, 07:15

I should clarify what i mean by religon is for the weak minded.

I think its a great thing to learn things from a religon and use them in your everyday life, but to follow a religon word for word is definelty being weak minded in my opinion. Why not come to your own conclusions about things in life that you have learned from several different sources.

Humans now a days have way too much time on their hands. Millions of years ago humans had to worry about food, shelter and water every single day and would never even give a thought about things that we think about now a days. They would probably just look up at the moon or sun and think thats their god or something like that. We are way too smart now for our own good.

We were obviously not meant to know what started everything. You will drive yourself mad trying to figue everything out. It basically breaks down to infinity. It just keeps going and going. A constant cycle (the universe that is and all of "life").

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Post by peps1154 » 17 Dec 2005, 12:07

U know it's like, There is no point in thinking about it because no matter how smart ur u will never figure out the questions of life. I am a Roman catholic and I read the bible, through it I understand my religion and I learn alot. For example it was the Jews who were supposed to be feithfull to jesus and god, but they didn't belive him and killed him. Then the religion spread to Europe were there were no Jews, but they belived in Jesus even thought unlike the Jews they never seen him. Life is a place were god checks if ur worhty of heaven.
I also got a self made theory about the Holucust:
Jesus was condemed to death by the jews. They were asked by the judged if they take the blood of Jesus on their hands. The Jewish people answered that they and their entire generations take that blood. More than a thousand years later Millions of Jews are slaughtered, I belive it was revange from god on the generations of the Jews who killed Jesus.

Sputnik
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Re: Religion

Post by Sputnik » 17 Dec 2005, 13:08

*yung-ital* wrote:
expert just owned sputnik.
I didnt put forward my point of view, with expert disproving it.
Rather i put forward a way of thinking and put it up for debate. This topic isnt about destroying other people's way of thinking, just pointing out different facts and opinions to perhaps help people see things in a different light. I myself do not necessarily believe all of what i said in my first post, it was just something i sometimes think about. In that way expert did teach me as his post has been the most informative and 'enlightening' (excuse the pun). Just to clarify the purpose of my post and this topic.

*yung-ital* wrote:
Anyways, I am a catholic and expert pretty much said my points but if science created us all, then why? and what created that little spark of science that started us all? what created the world that we live on? it just happened one day? there has to have been something that created us. A higher power must have created us. How could science just created us and the world, because then what created the small little particle or rock or even space? and if there was nothing in the world no planets no space no air no stars no black darkness in space, then what does nothing look like? because if we try and picture that , what comes to my mind is whiteness, but that is still something. Something had to have created us, and i am sorry, but i believe that there is a god, and i believe he is carrying me each day and his fate is in his hands.
What you just explained was the causation arguement. No one believes science created us. However science proves that the big bang did happen 15 billion years ago, and that evolution created all life on earth. Maybe God is the reason for evolution, maybe God is mother nature, and the spark of life. As for the big bang, it has been proven that the universe's expantion from its initial 'explosion' is decreasing and will eventually reverse (we can tell this because there must be infinate stars in the universe so how comes at night we are not blinded by ligt? because the universe is expanding so light from different stars takes longer to get here with movement). 'nothing' is either a vortex, a vacuum, or an event horison (black hole) all of which you do not associate with white light but with black. Justv my opinion on some of your points/
expert wrote:
Sputnik wrote:Like if God created a person and they murder someone, God created that person exactly how he meant it, and the situation under which they commited the muder, and on top of that he knew from the moment they were born (and before) they would commit that act.
The Bible states very clearly that humans adopted free will when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Then God condemned them to an imperfect material existance of labor and suffering. Notice that prior to that everything was good (there was no pain, death, shame, etc) BUT through the existence of evil (or variation of good and bad) also came free will. Without evil there is no free will.
Sputnik wrote:And if God created humans, created dna, and created their personality, and the situation they would be in, god practically created their ractions to certain situations.
Your personality is determined NOT ONLY by your genetics by your environment and your interaction with others (who have free will)
I don't belive in any religion but I like the teachings of Buddhism.
[/b][/quote]

I agree with your first point, well explained. The second point you state 'who have free will'. think of it like a computer program, if god created everything in the beginning, it is like he derived a programme. He created it and let it run, from the big bang onwards. Likewise he created the universe and therefore only one outcome was ever possible. If he 'ran the programme again' the outcome would still be the same. Like with a murder, when god 'created the programme' in the beginning, the configuration that led to that murder was already inputed, and run again the exact same thing would happen; therefore if only one outcome will ever happen then there can be no free will. all this is, again, hypothetical.

cfrealmadrid wrote:
you said a person, being born into a box, and not committing any sins, would go to hell because they were not a christian. there's a pretty good explanation for that. there's something in christianity called the "age of accountability." it's not the same for every person. it's basically the moment you can adequately realize what's right, and what's wrong (sin), you're accountable for your actions. not just "oh, mom will put me in timeout if i write on the walls," but rather "i'm not going to steal because it wouldn't be right morally." if a person lived in a box their whole life, they wouldn't have the experiences to teach them one thing is wrong and one thing is right. the same goes for babies, mentally handicapped, and young children who die and cannot really tell the difference between sin and good deeds. as far as people who just never hear of him...that's one of the things i don't understand, and probably never will. i know it sounds stupid, but you just have to believe when it comes to that subject.
Also a good and helpful explination, thanks.

J wrote:
In sometype of way i do believe in god, but religon is a crutch for the weak minded in my opinion. The bible wasnt born in your hands, another human put it there.
expert wrote:
*yung-ital* wrote:
there has to have been something that created us. A higher power must have created us.

We humans tend to look for meaning in everything. I mean who wants to belive that we're here by accident or for no reason at all.
I like to think we are here for no purpose, i do not like the idea of a set fate that God already knows. If i were here for no reason at all i could find my own purpose independantly, which i like the thought of, then i have no one else to blame. :)

Sorry for the long post, peace :twisted:
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matt
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Post by matt » 17 Dec 2005, 17:14

peps1154 wrote:U know it's like, There is no point in thinking about it because no matter how smart ur u will never figure out the questions of life. I am a Roman catholic and I read the bible, through it I understand my religion and I learn alot. For example it was the Jews who were supposed to be feithfull to jesus and god, but they didn't belive him and killed him. Then the religion spread to Europe were there were no Jews, but they belived in Jesus even thought unlike the Jews they never seen him. Life is a place were god checks if ur worhty of heaven.
I also got a self made theory about the Holucust:
Jesus was condemed to death by the jews. They were asked by the judged if they take the blood of Jesus on their hands. The Jewish people answered that they and their entire generations take that blood. More than a thousand years later Millions of Jews are slaughtered, I belive it was revange from god on the generations of the Jews who killed Jesus.
Before I begin I would just like to say that this is one of the most intersting topics on the site. Keep up the good work guys! :)

Now peps, please do correct me if I am horribly mistaken - didn't the Romans kill Jesus, who was given the title 'the King of the Jews'? I went to a church school (I am not religious, however) and I was taught that Ponscious Pilate (or something like that) gave the order. Now I really must protest that a God would do such a thing. Are you suggesting that Adolf Hitler and his Nazis were doing an act of God when they ordered the Holocaust? That is soemthing which I find unable to accept. Read your history - when Hitler was living in poverty in the streets of Vienna, day by day he was growing a hatred of the prosperous Jewish shopkeepers. This is what sparked it off I am afraid.

About Creationism and Religion - every argument has a flaw. The Bible is man-made. There is no evidence that any of the stories in the Old Testament are true, especially Genesis. If God created the Heavens and the Earth, who or what created God? Then again, what started the Big Bang? There seems to be no answer. I do believe that humans have free will, however I find it difficult to come to terms with the idea that God intends everything to happen. The Big Question is - why?
Last edited by matt on 20 Dec 2005, 15:34, edited 1 time in total.
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