konichiwa bitches

Talk about current events, entertainment, technology or anything not related to soccer
scottS4
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Post by scottS4 » 01 Apr 2011, 02:57

collin wrote:Really i think there will be no winner in this conversation, everyone here is either from the UK, Usa, or Canada. In everyone one of our countries we are all taught in different ways and different prespectives. For example the little kids in germany aren't going to talk about Adolf Hitler and how he killed millions of jews. Its all the same, the kids in the UK are taught to believe one thing, and the people from USA are taught to believe another.

i would also like to add that if germany did take over france and england, the soviets would not be able to take over germany. No way in hell. If germany was shitting on france and england 2 against 1, what makes russia different from france and england? what are they going to lure the germans into the cold and kill them?
It worked with Napoleon..

I agree with collin. History lessons will have differed for all of us, so this argument will never end, theres no point taking it further.

ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy » 01 Apr 2011, 09:56

collin wrote:Really i think there will be no winner in this conversation, everyone here is either from the UK, Usa, or Canada. In everyone one of our countries we are all taught in different ways and different prespectives. For example the little kids in germany aren't going to talk about Adolf Hitler and how he killed millions of jews. Its all the same, the kids in the UK are taught to believe one thing, and the people from USA are taught to believe another.

i would also like to add that if germany did take over france and england, the soviets would not be able to take over germany. No way in hell. If germany was shitting on france and england 2 against 1, what makes russia different from france and england? what are they going to lure the germans into the cold and kill them?
I think you'll find that 70% of your post is historically and factually inaccurate. What brings it up is that you prove the arguement that people in certain countries are educated for lack of a better word, "differently"

Firstly I think you'll find that German schools are quite open about the wars as they are kind of a big part of their history, they are quite open to discussing Hitler etc. Were you implying that it was a dark period for their country so they just sweep it under the carpet or something?

I'd also like to point out that Germany did conquer France. Also the simplification that that the fight was "2 against 1" is incorrect, it was far more than that. The german army was larger than the combined French and British armies which is one of the reasons they pushed them back. Midway through the war the Soviets had a far larger army than Germany which helped them drive Germany back.
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collin
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Post by collin » 01 Apr 2011, 10:27

yes, but germany would have took over russia if it wasn't for the cold, germany never got past moscow THEN forced them back. Everything before moscow germany dominated cause russia didn't expect anything, but if it wasnt for that cold germany would have beat em. Back to the topic, now you made me realize that it is illegal to deny the holocaust in germany so good one. But anyways this was just an example to my previous post, but the big idea is what i said before

ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy » 01 Apr 2011, 12:26

Its quite a big assumption to say Germany woud have defeated Russia, but having said that i'm sure a lot of history would be different if the season on Winter did not exist.

Russia is quite an un forgiving environment to fight a war many people throughout history have found that.

In Stalingrad alone Germany lost 800,000 soldiers. Fighting for one city. Do you think the Russians would have rolled over and been beaten that easily. They had 5 times as many soldiers as Britain or France and almost twice as many the USA sent.
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klc123
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Post by klc123 » 01 Apr 2011, 16:23

The cold weather in Russia is a advantage that has been used magnificantly on multiple wars throughout history, the most famous been against Napolean and much later Hitler.

To say they only won because of the cold would be the same as saying the only reason America were not invaded was because of the massive ocean between them and Germany.

The general consensus amongst historians is that Nazi Germany had the ability to take over the world if it was managed properly, however it was not. It was literally a case of Hitler and his team taking too much than they could chew. Fighting the British who had Naval and Air superiority during World War 2, fighting the Russians who had some of the best tanks and best dug in defences and largest army, while also trying to deal with French and other European resistance fighters was far too much for them to deal with, things were already tipping towards an Allied victory, and then of course the arrival of the US made the task of pushing the Germans back take a matter of months rather than years.

I never stated the US created slavery. I stated that the Americans have had slavery for over a century, a fact which is clearly true. I'm not denying that the British played a massive role in the developing slave trade, but to my knowledge the British never fought a civil war to try and keep slavery around either. I know that is a huge exaggeration of the causes of the Civil war btw, before anyone tries to bite me.

Quoting the BBC is the same as quoting a hideous monster, with many different faces which it hides behind. I don't trust them to report the weather accurately, never mind history.
The losses in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, but not as terrible as the number of Japanese who would have died as the result of an invasion. The revisionist historians of the 1960s - and their disciples - are quite wrong to depict the decision to use the bombs as immoral. It would have been immoral if they had not been used.
You should really not try to use a Historiography article as a source... The person who wrote that article, who incidentally holds the received view point on the matter, is very much entitled to post what they believe to be correct. The problem with History, as everyone has already said, that people do not have to agree on the same things, what so ever. Received view points are generally seen to be the tradition, thoughts at the time, which is why he would be in favour of the A-bombs. However, revised viewpoints are generally more informed and aware of other details not know at the time of the event. For that reason, a revised viewpoint is often much more supported after it has been put forward, and is much more likely to be closer to the truth. The revised viewpoint in the case of the A bombs was that they killed more then they saved. It is hard to understand these things, because there is so many what if's involved, but all the evidence through history points towards the revised view, that is why it is called a revised view, because it is a change of view by the general historian community on a particular topic, due to an update or change in knowledge.

Of course these things are never set in stone, so to be honest it's entirely you'r opinion, and you'r opinion alone that matters to you, but i'm just stated what I, and the majority of the History community agree to be the most likely fact out of all the evidence there is.

collin
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Post by collin » 01 Apr 2011, 18:56

Good posts, i guess nobody will ever really know if germany could have beaten russia without the cold

Juicygriot17
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Post by Juicygriot17 » 01 Apr 2011, 20:15

Yea KLC I see what ya mean, but the sheer language that you used showed some kind of hostility
On the other hand, America is the main culprit for bringing Africans to America and enslaving them for many years and causing years of discrimination towards Blacks in the first place.
Sorry but they way you said it was pretty hostile and such... but yea sorry for my little response

I think what collin said is true, referring back to Ratherton's point about the Royal Navy... I never heard about that in my studies. I also think that Russia would win because of their discipline, experience in extreme weather and superior conditioning... at least at the time i think? Correct me if i'm wrong.

Maybe the A-Bomb didn't save lives, but we don't know if the Japanese would have given up at one point, and they were progressing as a country pretty well

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 01 Apr 2011, 23:48

As much as many people like to portray the Japanese, they were not out to mindless get their entire nation slaughtered in an attempt to avoid giving up. If you actually look into depth on the Pearl Harbour attack, there was another wave planned, but the Chief of Army at the time called of the final raid, stating that the first waves had been more successful than expected, and that further waves would only be "kicking the US when they were down" as the majority of the base was at its knees and incapable of fighting back.

I know that is barely any thing at all compared to the scale of things, but it is little things like that which give clues to the mentality of the Japanese, and I honestly don't believe they were determined to get themselves slaughtered for their honour. If that were the case, then even the Atomic bombings wouldn't have stopped them.

Well you're correct with the Russians been used to fighting in tougher conditions than the Nazi's however you have to study Blitzkrieg and its affects to truly get an appreciation for how tactically brilliant there were. If you think of the Battle of the Somme in world war 1, where the trenchlines didn't move for quite literally years.T hen imagine the Germans in world war 2 coming up with a tactic that used strategic dive bombing, aggressive tank concentrations with backup artillery and lightweight speedy storm troopers to take over the enemy trenchs, in which the Germans would be coming through your defences faster than you could retreat, that is the reality of it and how france and other countries fell so fast.

Economically they were the most powerful country in the world. They were the first country out of depression by a long shot, even though they suffered the worst, and they achieved economic heights that modern day economists get wet dreams about.

Finally, technologically they were the most advanced country by a long shot. In 1944, the Germans were actually the closest nation to building an Atomic bomb. One of the scientists defected to the US, and the US used that scientist to copy the German model and make the final adjustments. Germany also had designed the worlds first ICBM, a rocket which can fly from Germany to cities such as London or Moscow on its own. Combine that with Nuclear warheads and no defences, spells disaster, the world wouldn't have known what hit it. They also had the first stealth bomber up and running, which could fly from Berlin to New York in 5 hours, and was capable of dropping a payload the size of a nuke. It is positively scary to think of how close the Nazi's came to dominating the world, as many of these breakthroughs were about to go into use in 1946, and if they had gone ahead, there would be no nation able to stand up to them.

Juicygriot17
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Post by Juicygriot17 » 02 Apr 2011, 01:14

Oh no I don't doubt it, of course the Nazi's had a great plan and almost had world domination. But I think that a world without a balance of power would of course never last. That's always been happening in history. One country dominating everything usually doesn't last

Another interesting thing, about the defected scientist. That really opened my eyes at how close they were

collin
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Post by collin » 02 Apr 2011, 03:09

I think the Japanese regardless of a second wave knew exactly what they were getting into, what is the saying that the one of the leaders of the japan said? it was something like, "we are awaking a sleeping beast" or something along the lines of that i remember watching that in the pearl harbor movie, they knew we were gonna sh*t on em after they did this obviously they didn't expect the A-bombs. their fault

ScottyBoy
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Post by ScottyBoy » 02 Apr 2011, 09:33

Juicygriot17 wrote:Of course the Nazi's had a great plan
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Think before you hit the submit button.



collin wrote:I think the Japanese regardless of a second wave knew exactly what they were getting into, what is the saying that the one of the leaders of the japan said? it was something like, "we are awaking a sleeping beast" or something along the lines of that i remember watching that in the pearl harbor movie, they knew we were gonna sh*t on em after they did this obviously they didn't expect the A-bombs. their fault
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Thats what you get for taking part in a historical debate then using a movie reference...
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People who say something cannot be done are often surprised by others doing it.

Juicygriot17
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Post by Juicygriot17 » 02 Apr 2011, 14:16

Im trying to acknowledge him... its a historical debate, i can say what i want. I meant that they were able to take over many countries very quickly, that's all.

klc123
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Post by klc123 » 02 Apr 2011, 23:53

Well in my opinion that was the main problem the Nazi's had, planning. If they had planned out their operations over a longer period of time, we wouldn't be talking about world dominance, we would be talking about the entire globe under Nazi control.

That double face palm was superb btw.

Tbh collin, you killed your point when you said "pearl harbour movie" :lol:

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