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soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 30 Mar 2011, 22:28

I read through the rest of the article and there were some pretty interesting things.
There is a growing consensus among modern historians that the views as to the utility of the bomb held in August 1945 were correct. We now know that if the bomb had not been used, the invasion of Japan would have gone ahead. The best indication we have of the casualties that might have occurred are the actual figures for the eight-week campaign on Okinawa, in which 12,500 Americans died, and 39,000 were wounded.

Fighting at the same intensity (it could not have been less) on Kyushu and Honshu, campaigns which would have lasted some 50 weeks, would have produced 80 to 100,000 American dead, and some 300 to 320,000 wounded. Are these casualties enough to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

If morality is based on numbers, and in this case it must be, then perhaps not. But what is usually overlooked in this numbers game, is the number of Japanese killed on Okinawa, which amounts to a staggering 250,000 military and civilian, about 20 Japanese killed for every dead American. If we conduct the same calculation for an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, we arrive at a figure of at least two million Japanese dead.

The losses in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, but not as terrible as the number of Japanese who would have died as the result of an invasion. The revisionist historians of the 1960s - and their disciples - are quite wrong to depict the decision to use the bombs as immoral. It would have been immoral if they had not been used.
Once again, from the BBC written by Duncan Anderson.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... r_01.shtml
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ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 30 Mar 2011, 23:28

collin wrote:agreed, and if it wasn't for the united states british people would be speaking german right now so there is no room to talk
No, we'd be speaking Russian because the Soviets would have defeated Hitler thus taking control. It would also have changed the whole pattern of the Cold War as there would be no NATO.

Anyway, we're jolly glad you eventually decided to join in albeit 2 years into the war.
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ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 30 Mar 2011, 23:31

soccer11 wrote:I read through the rest of the article and there were some pretty interesting things.
There is a growing consensus among modern historians that the views as to the utility of the bomb held in August 1945 were correct. We now know that if the bomb had not been used, the invasion of Japan would have gone ahead. The best indication we have of the casualties that might have occurred are the actual figures for the eight-week campaign on Okinawa, in which 12,500 Americans died, and 39,000 were wounded.

Fighting at the same intensity (it could not have been less) on Kyushu and Honshu, campaigns which would have lasted some 50 weeks, would have produced 80 to 100,000 American dead, and some 300 to 320,000 wounded. Are these casualties enough to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

If morality is based on numbers, and in this case it must be, then perhaps not. But what is usually overlooked in this numbers game, is the number of Japanese killed on Okinawa, which amounts to a staggering 250,000 military and civilian, about 20 Japanese killed for every dead American. If we conduct the same calculation for an invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, we arrive at a figure of at least two million Japanese dead.

The losses in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, but not as terrible as the number of Japanese who would have died as the result of an invasion. The revisionist historians of the 1960s - and their disciples - are quite wrong to depict the decision to use the bombs as immoral. It would have been immoral if they had not been used.
Once again, from the BBC written by Duncan Anderson.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/ ... r_01.shtml
I agree, the Atomic Bombs saved a lot of lives. In addition, I also think that once people (US and Soviets) saw what an A-Bomb could do, it probably stopped them being dropped during the Cold War. Read up on the Cuban Missile Crisis and see just how close World War III was.
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styale18
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Post by styale18 » 30 Mar 2011, 23:52

klc you know nothing about america. Im black and i live here. Yes black people suffered but its because the british started the slave trade so of course theyre going to treat the blacks badly: they learned from the british. Racism is always going to be around. Also, it makes sense to bomb if you warn japan. the japanese thought they were doing something right with the kamikazes but so did the islamic extremists who used roadside bombs.

soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 31 Mar 2011, 01:59

The thing about the Japanese fighting style was that there was no such thing as "surrendering". The Japanese almost always fought to the death. The Japanese saw it as an honor to fight to the death and surrendering was seen as a shame and an embarrassment. What they would do is if they were being overtaken, they would take a grenade, pull the pin, and hold it to their chest to blow themselves up and any enemy that was around them. It was basically the war equivalent of a suicide bomber.
Anyway, we're jolly glad you eventually decided to join in albeit 2 years into the war.
Better late than never, eh :wink:

The thing is, it's kind of silly to hold a grudge against a country for something that happened over a half century ago.
The Germans committed horrible crimes against humanity. I still like Germany though. I consider Germans to be our friends.
I like the Japanese even though they attacked Pearl Harbor. There's no hard feelings and i'm sure the opposite is true for them. The Japanese don't hate Americans because what happened.
I like the British, despite them being our biggest enemy in the first half century of our country's existence because the fact is, the UK wouldn't be the same without us and we wouldn't be the same without you guys. We're allies now. We're fighting the same wars, side by side. You guys are like our big brothers. Sure there's disagreements and rivalries, but that's the way brothers are I suppose. Maybe the little brother has gotten a little bit of a big head over the years, but you created us. I always have, and probably always will, have a certain affection for the Brits. When other countries didn't back us up, you guys were there. That goes a long way. I've always felt that the US and UK were the light house for freedom and democracy.
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panchester07
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Post by panchester07 » 31 Mar 2011, 05:28

I consider Germans to be our friends.
I like the Japanese even though they attacked Pearl Harbor.
What about the Guatemalians?? you didn't mention the guatemalians.. don't think i dind't notice..... :evil:
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soccer11
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Post by soccer11 » 31 Mar 2011, 15:03

I can't tell if you're being serious, but Guatemala was never one of our rivals turned allies. Because of the Monroe Doctrine I guess there's a connection, but I'm indifferent to them. Guatemala does trade with us quite a bit, but I wouldn't consider us allies, so I guess no, I don't. The US is friendly with Guatemala, (on decent terms) but we're not friends. The way I look at it is if the US had some kind of disaster, who would send help.
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ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 31 Mar 2011, 19:37

styale18 wrote:klc you know nothing about america. Im black and i live here. Yes black people suffered but its because the british started the slave trade so of course theyre going to treat the blacks badly: they learned from the british. Racism is always going to be around. Also, it makes sense to bomb if you warn japan. the japanese thought they were doing something right with the kamikazes but so did the islamic extremists who used roadside bombs.
I assume you are referring to the slave trade in the 1800s?

The truth is, slavery existed a long time before then. There used to be these people in what is now Italy called Romans and they were in favour of buying and selling the odd slave or two.

Zanzibar was a major trading place for the Arab slave trade and plenty of African tribes involved in the slave trade too.

Sorry, if that doesn't fit into your simplistic black=slaves, white=evil world. The Royal Navy were instrumental is dismantling the slave trade so perhaps you should read up on history a bit more before making sweeping statements about Britain and the slave trade?
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styale18
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Post by styale18 » 31 Mar 2011, 20:01

Nah i talking about in america and i know there was slavery elsewhere but i assumed by the black africans he was talking about the black africans originally sent the the sugar plantations in the carribeans and in the 13 colonies


EDIT: plus, i go to school where its 1600 white to 25 black so im cool with white people lol

ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 31 Mar 2011, 21:29

styale18 wrote:Nah i talking about in america and i know there was slavery elsewhere but i assumed by the black africans he was talking about the black africans originally sent the the sugar plantations in the carribeans and in the 13 colonies


EDIT: plus, i go to school where its 1600 white to 25 black so im cool with white people lol
Good lad. Colour isn't important, its how we treat people that counts.

If you are interested in that bit of history, there is a really good TV series called Roots. It follows the history of a young black lad being captured in Africa and taken to the US. The various episodes follow the generations of his family. I think it was filmed as a result of the research of a black guy who was in the US Coastguard and wanted to trace his family roots.
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Mandy felt Brian's wrath when she wandered in front of him after they'd announced free beer at the bar.....

styale18
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Post by styale18 » 31 Mar 2011, 21:44

of course i know about roots.. every black kid from my town has watched it multiple times of times though ive never fully watched it. that guy is alex haley who wanted to trace his family to the gambia.

ratherton
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Post by ratherton » 31 Mar 2011, 22:15

styale18 wrote:of course i know about roots.. every black kid from my town has watched it multiple times of times though ive never fully watched it. that guy is alex haley who wanted to trace his family to the gambia.
They keep showing random episodes here but I bought the box set a while ago and watched it in order. Very interesting.
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ajc
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Post by ajc » 31 Mar 2011, 23:43

Yeah Roots is definitely a moving piece of film making. The whole series was shown to most everyone in my high school in their history class. We also had to read a fair amount of historical fiction depicting the horrors of the slave trade but seeing it demonstrated visually certainly had a greater affect on many of the students.

And btw, the Chappelle's show sketch poking fun at Roots is pretty hilarious. Unfortunately this low quality video was the only one I could find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCXVyHPYgnQ
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arsenalfc08
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Post by arsenalfc08 » 01 Apr 2011, 01:52

I'm watching Roots right now.

In one of my college classes (it wasn't a huge class) we had a speaker come in and talk about slavery, the slave trade. We all layed down on the floor side by side and had to pretend to be in the boat.

The speaker was telling us about the conditions in the boat. Slaves were literally on top of each other, chained (even around their neck), for the duration of the trip. Think about certain things (bathroom), not being able to move, the person next to you may have died, etc.

Its just horrible!

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Post by collin » 01 Apr 2011, 02:20

Really i think there will be no winner in this conversation, everyone here is either from the UK, Usa, or Canada. In everyone one of our countries we are all taught in different ways and different prespectives. For example the little kids in germany aren't going to talk about Adolf Hitler and how he killed millions of jews. Its all the same, the kids in the UK are taught to believe one thing, and the people from USA are taught to believe another.

i would also like to add that if germany did take over france and england, the soviets would not be able to take over germany. No way in hell. If germany was shitting on france and england 2 against 1, what makes russia different from france and england? what are they going to lure the germans into the cold and kill them?

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