Socialism vs Capitalism vs Marxism vs yourownmadeup-ism

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2brown347
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I wasn't taking offense to it, just joking around. I has also refering more to communism than socialism, I'm sorta with Tommy on gov't. I like a capitalism with some socialism aspects (education, police, etc).

That said undeveloped nations wouldn't be magically fixed by any system.

And the young male thing does hold some truth but I'd say there is more to it. Doesn't the idea of being able to do a job you love for 20 years then retire and be able to do whatever you want sound more appealing than working until you're told you can retire and not having the money to do anything.

For instance my Grandpa grew up extremely poor, as did his father who was a son of a Irish immigrant. He worked hard as a national salesmen and was smart with his money. In his early 20 him and his brother bought a small steel company and eventually turned it into one of the bigger companies in the west coast. At the hieght of his success his brother (majority stock holder) kicked him out and my grandpa was suddenly broke again. Instead of giving up he started a construction company and was able to retire in his early 60's. Now him and my grandma spend their time traveling like they always wanted to when they were younger because they worked hard and built enough money to do it.

My dad also built a house for a women who's dad had come here at age 12 to earn money to send home so his sisters could get married. He ended up becoming a big time millionare (partly through underground casino's and bothels but also some legit bussiness) and now his children and their children and their children have it made. Some people see it as unfair but I see it as someone working hard to better their family.

Different views but when I hear success stories of people I want to get what they have. (Not commenting on any system, just the mentality we were discusing.)

MUFC1994
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KLC on paper socialism is the most ideal form of gov't, but in reality it never functions properly.

A combination of socialism and capitalism creates a balanced and well rounded gov't, but i don't believe in Utopia's
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LiveTheDream
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If we weren't human then communism would work brilliantly. Like klc, I also think that the perfect world would be a socialist one (communism is just an extreme branch of communism), but given history and people's perceptions, we won't ever achieve this.

Most people think that communism is an evil thing, but I think this stems mainly from the way Stalin botched it up in Russia after Lenin died, having Trotsky assassinated and going about implementing HIS version of it. The basis of communism is that there are no social classes, and property is owned by the state (ie the government) and shared by all. I fail to see the evil in this :)
Don't wish things were easier...

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2brown347
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I like the idea of owning my own property and being able to do what I want. If I want to work hard and buy 1000 acres and live on a land locked pirate ship then I think I should be able to. Just in the way if someone wants to spend their life trying to make it as a rockstar living in a studio apartment they should be able to. A life where everyone is equal (in the sense given the same thing) isn't a perfect life (life not society).

Goodness I'm getting sucked in like always...

TommyGun
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2brown347 wrote:I like the idea of owning my own property and being able to do what I want. If I want to work hard and buy 1000 acres and live on a land locked pirate ship then I think I should be able to. Just in the way if someone wants to spend their life trying to make it as a rockstar living in a studio apartment they should be able to. A life where everyone is equal (in the sense given the same thing) isn't a perfect life (life not society).

Goodness I'm getting sucked in like always...
This. I think you should be able to be as involved or uninvolved with society as you chose to be. If this means more privacy for those who seek it, great. If these means no privacy for those who seek the spotlight, it's their choosing.

The distribution of natural resources would also play a fairly sizable factor into this situation. Are we talking about a world-wide system? How would you prevent racism or promote cultural pride? There are things people need other than the necessities(food, clothing, shelter, organization) to be productive and promote a high quality of life. I'm not saying that any of these systems don't offer their positives, but a blend would almost be necessary to offer something for everyone. Damn, I'm knee deep in this now too.
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terminator
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Nat_H wrote: Economics is a science, one that has to be practiced multiple times in different situations, in order to discover its laws. Unfortunately, these experiments are a little difficult to implement. You're messing with whole populations.
Yeah this is the main problem with economics relative to other sciences. But that does not mean...Nothing should be done. There is an alternative with the application of Econometrics and the new field of Experimental Economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_economics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econometrics
2brown347 wrote:I like the idea of owning my own property and being able to do what I want. If I want to work hard and buy 1000 acres and live on a land locked pirate ship then I think I should be able to. Just in the way if someone wants to spend their life trying to make it as a rockstar living in a studio apartment they should be able to. A life where everyone is equal (in the sense given the same thing) isn't a perfect life (life not society).

Goodness I'm getting sucked in like always...
First of all...YAYY for you guys getting sucked in! :)

But what if a rich guy owns most of the property and has a monopoly over it? That rich guy probably got an inheritance and did not have to work hard for it at all. I think Land is common property of all of humanity and therefore private individuals should not own it. I believe in Georgism when it comes to land.

Georgism still allows for widespread private property and capitalism, the difference being that ownership is only allowed on things created by an individual. It could not be used for private gain, although structures built on the land could be rented or otherwise used for private gain(since that would be created by individuals).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

Nat_H
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But if you "work hard" for your own property, why should you not be able to cede it to your own children? "Rich people" aren't allowed to enslave poorer people and force them to work in slums. This isn't Medieval feudalism, or the early 20th Century.

It also seems that socialists are more in favor of government lotteries than the stock market.

Also, "communism" in its one-sentence definition isn't "evil", but if you implement it as Karl Marx proposed (I haven't read Marx, haha), you get something along the lines of Soviet Russia and North Korea.

klc123
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Soviet Russia was run in a completely different way to which Karl Marx proposed, and anyone who suggests otherwise has just been fed pure bulls**t.

The reason Communism in Russia was evil, was because of Stalin, who was an oppressive dictator. You wouldn't say all of capitalism was evil just because Hitler used capitalism, so don't try and suggest one poorly executed example in soviet Russia, completely disregards the entire philosophy.

2brown347
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terminator wrote:
2brown347 wrote:I like the idea of owning my own property and being able to do what I want. If I want to work hard and buy 1000 acres and live on a land locked pirate ship then I think I should be able to. Just in the way if someone wants to spend their life trying to make it as a rockstar living in a studio apartment they should be able to. A life where everyone is equal (in the sense given the same thing) isn't a perfect life (life not society).

Goodness I'm getting sucked in like always...
First of all...YAYY for you guys getting sucked in! :)

But what if a rich guy owns most of the property and has a monopoly over it? That rich guy probably got an inheritance and did not have to work hard for it at all. I think Land is common property of all of humanity and therefore private individuals should not own it. I believe in Georgism when it comes to land.

Georgism still allows for widespread private property and capitalism, the difference being that ownership is only allowed on things created by an individual. It could not be used for private gain, although structures built on the land could be rented or otherwise used for private gain(since that would be created by individuals).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
I agree with what Nat_H, if someone works hard why shouldn't they be able to pass that down to their children? I think people tend to look at richer people and think "they don't deserve that, I do", and from that deep rooted feeling comes a lot of the ideals like Georgism.

Tommy hit my thinking right on the head. I think people should be able to do whatever they please (not talking about crime, but their involvement in society).

Hell my dad built the house for one of the guys who worked on the first computers and has enough money that his great great great grandchildren will probably never have to work if they choose not to, or he may decide to give all his money to charity when he dies. IMO he should be able to do whichever he likes and if thats to give it to kids thats fine.

You could say the idea you can't give what you work for to your children probably is the idea I dispise the most.
wouldn't say all of capitalism was evil just because Hitler used capitalism
They were socialist (National Socialist German Workers Party)

LiveTheDream
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2brown347 wrote:
terminator wrote:
2brown347 wrote:I like the idea of owning my own property and being able to do what I want. If I want to work hard and buy 1000 acres and live on a land locked pirate ship then I think I should be able to. Just in the way if someone wants to spend their life trying to make it as a rockstar living in a studio apartment they should be able to. A life where everyone is equal (in the sense given the same thing) isn't a perfect life (life not society).

Goodness I'm getting sucked in like always...
First of all...YAYY for you guys getting sucked in! :)

But what if a rich guy owns most of the property and has a monopoly over it? That rich guy probably got an inheritance and did not have to work hard for it at all. I think Land is common property of all of humanity and therefore private individuals should not own it. I believe in Georgism when it comes to land.

Georgism still allows for widespread private property and capitalism, the difference being that ownership is only allowed on things created by an individual. It could not be used for private gain, although structures built on the land could be rented or otherwise used for private gain(since that would be created by individuals).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
I agree with what Nat_H, if someone works hard why shouldn't they be able to pass that down to their children? I think people tend to look at richer people and think "they don't deserve that, I do", and from that deep rooted feeling comes a lot of the ideals like Georgism.

Tommy hit my thinking right on the head. I think people should be able to do whatever they please (not talking about crime, but their involvement in society).

Hell my dad built the house for one of the guys who worked on the first computers and has enough money that his great great great grandchildren will probably never have to work if they choose not to, or he may decide to give all his money to charity when he dies. IMO he should be able to do whichever he likes and if thats to give it to kids thats fine.

You could say the idea you can't give what you work for to your children probably is the idea I dispise the most.
wouldn't say all of capitalism was evil just because Hitler used capitalism
They were socialist (National Socialist German Workers Party)
I fully see where you're coming from on this, and I do agree that if you work hard then you should be allowed to do what you want with what you earn. I think where most of the resentment regarding this comes from is if kids just inherit rich mummy or daddy's money/property and sit on their arses all day and do nothing for society or to earn this. A certain Paris Hilton springs to mind here :wink:

I think some things, particularly healthcare, should really be predominantly in state ownership. I can't stand the idea that people who are from lower socio-economic backgrounds are not able to access basic healthcare because it has been privatised and the cost is astronomical. Healthcare is a basic right, everyone has the right to access it. If people, for whatever reason, choose to go private for this then that's their prerogative, they'll have their own reasoning for this which is down to their own conscience. But everyone, no matter what their background or family or socio-economic status deserves access to proper healthcare. By having a big, 'main' (for want of a better word) healthcare system, this would be made available to everyone.
Don't wish things were easier...

... Wish you were better


Focus on the journey, and the result will take care of itself

klc123
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Seriously.

You have possibly glanced at the definition of Nazi on Wikipedia and come to the conclusion that they were socialists. Pure bulls**t. They were a capitalistic government, that used many socialist ideas in their policies so that they would get the votes of people who wanted socialist proposals, and also at the same time the votes of the other parties.
:roll:

NewBornProdigy
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Nat_H wrote:But if you "work hard" for your own property, why should you not be able to cede it to your own children? "Rich people" aren't allowed to enslave poorer people and force them to work in slums. This isn't Medieval feudalism, or the early 20th Century.

It also seems that socialists are more in favor of government lotteries than the stock market.

Also, "communism" in its one-sentence definition isn't "evil", but if you implement it as Karl Marx proposed (I haven't read Marx, haha), you get something along the lines of Soviet Russia and North Korea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfm30WEiPk

Wanna know why he's so famous? Cause he was once part of the 60% of America that are just worthless scum, people have the same pain

You guys speak of capitalism as the saving grace to our social and economic tradgies

You guys are not stupid or brain-washed
You guys just do not understand life in the way you think you do

Furthermore, the people he is appealing to are the polar opposite to the people in a position to change the world for the better... But sit back and let it decay through conservative and stubborn veiws

A quote from the song
"My life is full of empty promises and broken dreams,
I'm hoping things look up but there ain't no job openings"

Man, You can't really condem something that is an attempt to eradicate this depression, because 'you like to be able to become rich'

Capitalist society does not suit everyone

Same way as you see kids in school who can't add 4 and 4, but could build and engine behind their back, some people are just not made for climbing the property ladder or becoming a doctor

In Ireland 1,500,000 people of a 4 million strong population are without work cause of the acts of greed of roughly 5,000 bankers worldwide (largely America's)

Can you honestly say... That is a success?

You have eyes, peel them past the mirror and you might understand why people condem your government, country and capitalist system

I'm not saying Socialism is the way forward, but I know its A way forward unlike Capitalism

klc123
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100% that.

TommyGun
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I'm glad this has turned from a discussion about ideas to a "why America is evil". It may not be the intention, but the last couple of posts seem to try to focus on shortcomings of the American capitalism in terms of bankers, medical treatment, etc.

I'm an American currently living in Canada. I was excited to see how this Medical system works due to the media coverage of health-care reform in the US and mainly for my own curiosity. I paid roughly $100 USD for health insurance a month in the US(as a college student, no company involvement). When I got a job with a large bank out of college, they were PAYING me $25 a month to carrying health insurance because I brought their risk pool down. That included EVERYTHING...prescriptions, specialists, alternative medicine.

I moved to Vancouver and I pay roughly $55 CAD a month for health insurance. I thought I broke my toe a couple months back and went to get it checked. I went to urgent care, which sent me to a imagining center for X-Rays. I never received a call back. I tried to call them the next day and my call was never returned. I went to a major hospital a week later to get it checked again. I started at 8 a.m. and waited to roughly 1:30 p.m. to be seen. My toe was imagined again and roughly 3:30 p.m. the doctor came out to tell me she "doesn't think it's broken" and to R.I.C.E. There was no mention to anything meds for swelling, no cortisone shot....it was just see ya.

In my opinion, I'd rather pay $100 a month for insurance that would cover a Podiatrist visit, meds or anything that would assist in my recovery than say a $55 universal fee for someone to tell me information that is readily available on the internet. I know that there should be health-care reform in the US, but at what cost? I pay roughly 36% income tax here, on top of the 12% HST(sales tax) on everything(labor, goods, services). If you work and purchase things, you are already down to 52% of the money you've earned. I don't smoke and I drink rarely, but the taxes on those items are extremely high and the majority of those taxes go towards health-care. As it should due to the factors that are directly related to costs in the health system, but where does it end? Does there need to be a cheeseburger tax in an attempt to fight off obesity? A strip club tax to keep our communities' moral standard high?

All I'm saying is there are power in choices. If there were a blend of health insurance companies along with government-provided insurance for those less fortunate(much like medicare, medicade already in service)...people get what they want. If you factor in my taxes here, I'm paying atleast $100 a month here...just not directly.

Also, when you mention bankers...don't forget the Swiss and Caribbean as well. There are Europe-based hedge funds/private equity/highly leveraged governments and let's try not to point fingers that couldn't easily go the other direction.

Capitalism is above wealth creation, not distribution. People will continue to lose jobs regardless of the actions of a few. When real estate takes a dive, those agents move to other businesses. When a school closes down because the government can't afford to keep it open, a private school may benefit from that teacher's dismissal.

No one says that it's always a positive change, but there is that risk/reward involved in the field you chose. That kids that can build engines might the next Henry Ford. So what he can't be a doctor? Do you think the guys that started Waste Management wanted to pick up garbage for a living? They started doing something that revolutionized how it was done before, and due to that revolution...they created thousands of jobs for others to provide for their families. Sure, there is a risk, but a reward in terms that is bigger than any money will bring. Just because money is involved doesn't mean all businesses REVOLVE around it within capitalism. In my personal opinion, I don't like some businesses that exist within Capitalism. I agree with Henry Ford that said "A business that makes nothing but money is a poor kind of business."
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Flyingmoose
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socialism=bad
capitalism=good

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