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| Posted: 30 Dec 2009, 16:04 | |
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NewBornProdigy wrote: Abortions are disgusting and violating... But you really can't tell this to a person who is in school and probably thinks her chances in life will go nill if he has the baby (which isn't at all true) You kinda have to let them have their way, like its her body
I think its better to tell the truth and offer support. We'd save money (isn't the US government planning on funding abortions with taxpayer money?) and lives. Honesty in this situation is a win-win. ZIDANE THE LEGEND  Check out my Anaerobic Fitness Guide |
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| Posted: 30 Dec 2009, 19:58 | |
Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2007, 20:26 Posts: 2921 Location: Vancouver |
klc123 wrote: Im not saying any disreguard to your mum Newbornprodigy, im sorry if you took it that way. She obviously went through with the pregnancy, she faced up to her actions and took the responsibilities that she now had and accepted it.
1) Yes maybe it was hard for your mum and whatever, but she didn't abort you, the point i was making is that mums that go through with abortion are not responsible enough for their actions to be having sex if they cannot face up to the possibility of having a child. If the mum was in such a fincial state that the baby would have a poor life, then i would recommend the child be put up for adoption, either way, the baby should not lose its life because of the short comings of its irrisponsible parents. 2) The same goes for men, don't think im taking one side and saying its all the girls fault, i think the boys are atleast equally responsible and they too must accept that and help raise the child or support the mother. If shes good enough for you to boink, shes good enough and deserves your help for your child. Doing a runner is not right. 3) And the thing about remembering inside the womb was to do with Hugh saying brain activity begins at 25 weeks. I don't think there is actual brain activity as in they have memory, but i think that their body is properly wired to feel at that point, im not sure i can't remember fetuses A-Z... 4) Reguardless on wether i have a dickhead point of view, its what every christian is brought up on and what everyone in the church believes, abortion is wrong, the point about the mother deserving to be put down more is due to the fact that the mothers actions resulted in the situation, not the small child. If a child was walking along the road and a car was speeding with a drunk driver in it who went up on the curb and hit the child, who deserves to die? the innocent child whos actions played nearly no role, or the drunk driver whose actions caused the accident. Same principal. Im not saying either deserve to die, but i am saying if one has to, it most certainly shouldn't be the child. 5) In the case of pregnacy there is nothing stopping both from living, niether have to die. The baby could be adopted by parents who cannot have a child but have always wanted one and can support and love it, or the mother can keep and tend for it herself if she is able to, killing the baby in my opinion is a quick and easy way out that shouldn't be allowed. 1) Yeah! Those girls getting raped by their fathers or co-workers etc etc should think about their responsibilities to their potential children before they go about getting raped! Furthermore if they do get raped, they should be forced by an outside agency to carry the baby to term, no matter how old they are and then put it up for adoption. Do you realize what you're asking them to do? Very few people have it in them to bring a life into this world, nurse it to health, breastfeed it and then put it up for adoption, many people try to do this but fail because they form an emotional attachment to the child during breastfeeding. Women are capable of pregnancy at 10 years of age. Let that sink in for a second. 10 years old, that's grade 5, now ask yourself this, what is the lesser of two evils? Making a 10 year old girl go through with the most painful experience of a woman's life at an age when she's not even fully grown? Or aborting the baby and saving both mother and baby a great deal of hardship. What kind of life would that baby lead? When it's 10 its mum will be 21, its mum will not be well educated and likely will not be able to support it, it will be born into poverty and will remain in poverty for the rest of its life, it will turn to crime and it will live a shorter life than its counterpart born to a stable family. 2) In cases of rape or molestation the father is going to go to jail in any case, so either he stays and goes to prison or he does a runner, either way he won't be around to help raise the kid. 3) No brain activity means that the fetus is a lump of flesh, not an animal, do you know what lives that has no brain activity? Plants and bacteria. At that point you're not killing a child and the procedure is morally the same as using a condom. 4) Right, of course, I'm forgetting that the church is an absolute moral paragon which is always right when it comes to moral issues. Let me ask you something, do you believe that slavery is right? Is it morally correct? If you answered yes then I guess I shouldn't talk to you but if you answered no then read on. For centuries the Church you belong to supported and encouraged slavery, the buying and selling of human beings, the Church, which according to you is a guiding beacon of morality said that slavery is ok. Later, the church would say that they were wrong and that slavery is bad but if you had been raised in that time you would believe that slavery is right just because your church told you to. The church is not the be all end all of moral issues, it is run by human beings who will adapt their sermons to the attitudes of the time, they were wrong about slavery and they are wrong about abortion the church does not have absolute authority over jack shit. 5) An unwanted pregnancy means undue hardship on the mother and the child, in a large portion of cases it can mean that both mother and child will live in poverty for the rest of their lives, this is the beginning of the cycle of poverty and with each subsequent generation it becomes less and less likely that the family will ever reach financial stability. People who live in poverty are more likely to commit crime and are a greater burden on the taxpayer because they require government run incentives for food and shelter. By aborting this child you are averting a potential future in which this family will commit crimes and be a burden on the system. This cycle will continue for a very long time and the question you've got to ask yourself is how much crime and how many dependants is one life worth Highlighted in red are the important points, read those or don't bother responding although I'd prefer if you read the whole thing.   www.mission-control.tumblr.com |
| Posted: 30 Dec 2009, 20:07 | |
Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26 Posts: 2858 |
I wasn't trying to say that the church is perfectly correct, i was just saying that my opinion is the way it is because ive been brought up and perhaps brainwashed if you want to believe in the same way as they do.
A 10 year old getting raped is a completely different kettle of fish. Rape is a completely different kettle of fish. The terms in which im talking about are a normal pregnancy which was not wanted, so the mother has opted for an abortion. I think in the case of rape, perhaps the best outcome would be abortion, especially if its on a young girl, but if the girl of say 18 knowingly has sex and gets pregnant, she should go through with the pregnancy, and if she cannot afford to keep it or the quality of life of the child is going to be low, then the baby can be set up for adobtion. The ammount of people who can't have kids but want one and would be able to offer it love and a good quality of life that don't get one because not enough babies are sent for adobtion is rediculous. If the mother can tend for the baby, and wants it, then she should go through with the pregnacy, if she does not want it or cannot afford to bring it up, then she should have the baby but set it up for adoption. Rare cases like a young girl getting raped are completely different, i believe their the only cases abortion should be used. Rape and eptopic pregnacy are the only times abortion should ever be used in my opinion. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. |
| Posted: 30 Dec 2009, 20:14 | |
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Nat_H wrote: NewBornProdigy wrote: Abortions are disgusting and violating... But you really can't tell this to a person who is in school and probably thinks her chances in life will go nill if he has the baby (which isn't at all true) You kinda have to let them have their way, like its her body I think its better to tell the truth and offer support. We'd save money (isn't the US government planning on funding abortions with taxpayer money?) and lives. Honesty in this situation is a win-win. Not in this country, cause of the shower of fuckheads who run the church and the shower of fuckheads who run the country (who basically lick the churches asses) A girl over heres needs a thousand or so euros to have an abortion... Cause she has to travel to England...  But yeah I get what your saying  Quote: Rare cases like a young girl getting raped are completely different, i believe their the only cases abortion should be used.
My man, in the shithole we live in... Rape ain't rare And its very difficult to know when a pregnancy was actually a rape... Even a court trial might get it wrong... And you can't just condem someone to 'have that baby' unless its rape... Its a freedom issue more than a morality one, we gotta respect a humans choice before a potential humans... But at very most in school's we should educate people on abortions 
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| Posted: 30 Dec 2009, 20:40 | |
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Really guys discussing this will never be the most valid arguements because simply a pregnancy is something we'll never have..
(except that dude that use to be a chick from bend oregon and I guess technically you go through it if you are having a baby with a chick but its totally different and you know what I mean...) plus klc there are tons of situations you aren't considering, and you have to ask yourself when its morally right to deny a women an abortion. The worlds already over populated, and there are already enough kids without homes so if a women who knows she can't raise a child decides to have an abortion then I'm 100% fine with it. |
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| Posted: 30 Dec 2009, 21:32 | |
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Wow, so i fundamentally disagree with alot of this. I probably won't offer my opinion unless we start a new topic on politics or somethin.
ZIDANE THE LEGEND Check out my Anaerobic Fitness Guide |
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| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 00:56 | |
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Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26 Posts: 2858 |
I think if a women wants an abortion and has no real basis or excuse like rape or eptopic pregnacy, she should have to pay for it or go private, tax payers should not be paying for that, that money could be going towards curing cancer and aids.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. |
| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 04:19 | |
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It shouldn't be paid for with tax payers money, but that isn't what was being discused.
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| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 04:40 | |
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Veteran Member Joined: 20 Jan 2007, 20:26 Posts: 2921 Location: Vancouver |
klc123 wrote: I think if a women wants an abortion and has no real basis or excuse like rape or eptopic pregnacy, she should have to pay for it or go private, tax payers should not be paying for that, that money could be going towards curing cancer and aids.
Not too sure about that. An unwanted pregnancy for someone who's already in poverty could be a very dangerous situation for both mother and child. www.mission-control.tumblr.com |
| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 07:32 | |
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2brown347 wrote: Really guys discussing this will never be the most valid arguements because simply a pregnancy is something we'll never have.. (except that dude that use to be a chick from bend oregon and I guess technically you go through it if you are having a baby with a chick but its totally different and you know what I mean...)
plus klc there are tons of situations you aren't considering, and you have to ask yourself when its morally right to deny a women an abortion. The worlds already over populated, and there are already enough kids without homes so if a women who knows she can't raise a child decides to have an abortion then I'm 100% fine with it. Here's a female perspective on abortion... Personally, I support abortions. Not if as I think 2brown said if it was used as a form of contraceptive (sorry if it was someone else who made this point)- although I really can't think why you would want to use it as a form of contraception. Getting your body invaded when you could have bought a pill or condoms?  Seriously, if there are girls out there who are using this as a form of contraception, then they are stark raving mad. 
But in principle I support abortion. Pregnancies occur often, most aren't planned, and if the mother is in a situation where they know they can't provide the best possible start in life for the baby, why should mother and child suffer because people who know nothing about their situation say "Oh, it was your fault you got pregnant, you just gotta live with it"? That can breed ill-feeling from the mother towards the child simply for being born (irrational I know, but with hormones charging through their system... Well, need I say more?), and thus anger from the child when it's older because it is not the child's fault, yet it is somehow being blamed. Women should have the choice as to whether they want an abortion or not. There can be many circumstances that would affect the way in which they can react to a pregnancy- planned or unplanned, and to a degree I feel that it would be unfair for outsiders to deem whether these are appropriate reasons for a woman to have an abortion because we all respond to different situations differently. I also think that it is unfair to say that if a girl gets pregnant knowingly and cannot afford to bring it up or whatever then she should go through with the pregnancy and put it up for adoption- that is completely unfair. What a woman goes through during pregnancy is pretty mad if you think about it. Her life gets turned completely upside down, hormones go mental, there is a ton of physical and emotional changes that she has to deal with. How exactly is it fair to say "Oh, you knew that by having sex you would get pregnant, it's your problem now deal with it. Go through 9 months of carrying the baby, with all the stuff attached to it, only to give up the baby after it is born" (Ok, not a direct quote, but the feeling behind it is representative of what I interpreted from some of the posts). For some people it is just not feasible to go through this- and feelings change after the baby is born. Imagine developing this bond between you and another living creature- one that you have carried for nine months in your own body- and then remembering that you now have to give it up to someone else. I'm not criticising adoption at all- I think that it is a fantastic way of allowing couples who cannot conceive a child of their own for whatever way to have a child, and give it a life that it might not otherwise have had. But to say that an unwanted pregnancy must end in adoption since the mother's reasons for wanting an abortion aren't good enough- well, that just cannot work in my opinion. In some situations, one rule cannot work for all, and this is one such situation. By the way, Hugh- your points which you highlighted in red I agree with 
Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that women should have the choice. Why should people who don't know their situations at all say what they can and cannot do with their bodies? Make decisions that will affect them and other people (potentially) for the rest of their lives? It is ultimately down to each individual to decide how they will live their lives, but they should be at least be given the full range of options that humanity has invented from which to choose, and make decisions that can change their lives forever. There are many more points that I could raise on the subject by the way, but these I feel are the more relevant ones to the current argument. Also, I hope I haven't offended or misinterpreted anyone's views, but I have basically said it as I saw it. If I have misinterpreted your views, then I am really sorry, it was not intended at all.[/b] Don't wish things were easier... ... Wish you were better Focus on the journey, and the result will take care of itself |
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| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 15:25 | |
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Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26 Posts: 2858 |
But thats like saying if you buy a pet then you should be allowed to beat it up abuse it and kill it as its your pet and you have freedom to do whatever you want to it.
Its not the point of us as people having freedom of choice im bothered about, its the fact that some people are too irresponsible with their freedom of choice which leads to suffering and inhuman things like uneccessary abortions. And hugh yes it could be devasting if someone in poverty has an unwanted child, but putting a child up for adobtion is free as far as i know and that would also help a family who can't have their own kid. Two birds with one stone i think. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. |
| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 15:30 | |
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Hugh wrote: klc123 wrote: I think if a women wants an abortion and has no real basis or excuse like rape or eptopic pregnacy, she should have to pay for it or go private, tax payers should not be paying for that, that money could be going towards curing cancer and aids. Not too sure about that. An unwanted pregnancy for someone who's already in poverty could be a very dangerous situation for both mother and child. Dont play with fire unless you can handle the flame is what I say. By now, you have to be a complete idiot if you still manage to get your woman pregnant before time.. The woman also has to be pretty dumb.. Theyrs so much campaign and tips everywhere you go.. I think the lady that got knocked up, should definetly have the kid one way or another.. This might sound gay, but I was watching desperate housewives a few years ago... One gal got pregnant, she was like 15. What her mom (bree I think) did, is she sent her to a nuns camp in like Norway untill she had the baby, and then put it in adoption..... Thats one hell of a way to handle things... to know Him is to want to know Him more" "i don't know where the limit is, but I know where it is not" Tocar y moverse y tratarla siempre muy muy bien..' |
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| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 15:55 | |
Admin Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:40 Posts: 4995 Location: Michigan, USA |
Honestly, I think that the opinion of most of the guys here who are against aboriton would change very quickly if they were to get their girlfriends pregnant. It's easy to have a view on something if it hasn't happened to them. I know people who have changed their view on abortion very quickly.
Hugh wrote: 4) Right, of course, I'm forgetting that the church is an absolute moral paragon which is always right when it comes to moral issues. Let me ask you something, do you believe that slavery is right? Is it morally correct? If you answered yes then I guess I shouldn't talk to you but if you answered no then read on.
For centuries the Church you belong to supported and encouraged slavery, the buying and selling of human beings, the Church, which according to you is a guiding beacon of morality said that slavery is ok. Later, the church would say that they were wrong and that slavery is bad but if you had been raised in that time you would believe that slavery is right just because your church told you to. The church is not the be all end all of moral issues, it is run by human beings who will adapt their sermons to the attitudes of the time, they were wrong about slavery and they are wrong about abortion the church does not have absolute authority over jack shit. Thank you Hugh! I've been telling church people this when we're talking about how moral the churchis but a lot of them deny it ever happened like that. The problem with issues like this is when you start letting other people tell you how you should think, like the bible with abortion and the like. Like it's been stated, in a world that's already overpopulated, why have more unfortunate cases where the kids have no chance at a good life, which results in more thefts and break ins because they're trying to survive which just brings the quality of life down for everyone. Is that what you want? I think that's the reason for an increase in violence and robbery, People trying to survive because they don't have a chance any other way. 
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| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 16:29 | |
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Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 16:26 Posts: 2858 |
Its like talking to a brick wall sometimes.
If the kid is going to have a poor life, it can be set up for adobtion with a perfectly good family who can't have their own children but have the resources and love to bring the child up correctly. Wheres the problem in that? And if you think theres a problem with the world been overpopulated and the cure for it is to kill all unwanted babies, how about you start injecting people with aids, and zapping them with radiation to make them get cancer quicker, just to thin down the numbers a little bit right? because that wouldn't be bad at all? A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. |
| Posted: 31 Dec 2009, 16:35 | |
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Admin Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:40 Posts: 4995 Location: Michigan, USA |
klc123 wrote: Its like talking to a brick wall sometimes.
If the kid is going to have a poor life, it can be set up for adobtion with a perfectly good family who can't have their own children but have the resources and love to bring the child up correctly. Wheres the problem in that? And if you think theres a problem with the world been overpopulated and the cure for it is to kill all unwanted babies, how about you start injecting people with aids, and zapping them with radiation to make them get cancer quicker, just to thin down the numbers a little bit right? because that wouldn't be bad at all? haha because I said let's kill people right? No, I just said there's no point for these unneccesary babies who have no chance at a good life. And alright, adoption. That still doesn't solve the fact that we're still overpopulated. In the long run, it would do more bad than good. there's already a shortage of jobs. Having a higher population would just mean even more people without jobs in the long run.
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